Help with newly purchased Supra TT

tDR - This series of posts were split out from a Scottish meet thread. Have moved here for discussion to help Billy.

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happy days ill be there with my new 450bhp at the wheels see you all then!!!!come on the celtic!

happy days ill be there with my new 450bhp at the wheels see you all then!!!!come on the celtic!

Didnt think standard Jspec tubbys could make this much power??

Didnt think standard Jspec tubbys could make this much power??

He's dreaming, just checked the spec list from the for sale ad. I'd say 400bhp fly tops at Dastek

Of course if you have a 1/4 mile timeslip with a terminal speed (a true indicator of power) that proves otherwise Billy, I'm all ears.

Won't make this meet myself guys - enjoy!

Cheers,

Brian.

the dyno tells the hole story.i only bought the car like this on saturday.the turbos mite be hybrid unsure. but if you guys think otherwise fair enough!see you all sunday!

well im only going by the dyno print out !

The dyno plot is lying

I'm sure the car flies though.

it got dynod if you look at the pictures i have put a print out saying 447 done by western preformance.but i guess you guys know better than the dyno!!!

Yes, we do know better than dynos - take any figures with a pinch of salt and just think of them as tuning aids. The accepted indicative figures for various stages of tune can be seen on the Surrey RR thread on here - Dastek in Fife usually give figures around about the same mark for a similar level of mods, if anything slightly lower figures.

Weston have a notoriously optimistic dyno, it tells stories alright lol

The main thing is that your car drives well and feels fast to you, just don't expect to leave other BPU Supras for dust.

well what the hell do i know.before it got the Apexi Neo Fuel Controller fitted it was showing up as 370 then after it was fitted and remapped at 1.1bar 447 was the number that came up.feels fast to me.im used to the power of my rx8!lol

What kinda resolution does the Neo have? To me your spec is a bit of an oddity - you have an aftermarket / remapped Toyota ECU, then you have a Fuel controller on top. Who 'mapped' (you're talking minimal load points with these and ITC's) it and why was it added? Were the before and after power figures by the same place on the same rollers?

Seems a fudge. Personally at your spec level the safest thing to do would be to ditch both and fit a standard Toyota ECU. Jap remapped ECU's tend to be pretty aggressive on the timing front whilst also leaning out the fuelling, who knows what's going on with yours without a set of det cans and a wideband on it with some WOT pulls on the open road.

Blitz Nur Spec. exhaust nc. 2xDecat and restrictor ring

HKS Induction Kit, HKS Kansai ECU, Oil Cooler,

GReddy Boost gauge and Oil Pressure and Temp gauges in A pillar

Trust FMIC, HKS SSQ BOV, Blitz SBC Boost Controller

Apexi Neo Fuel Controller including dyno set-up by Weston Performance. yea the dyno got done before and after the apexi got fitted on the same day!and as for the neo god only knows the rez on it im scared to touch the thing incase i mess it up!

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tDR - Also following this I had a PM from Billy:

hi are you going to this meet.you seem to know what your talking about could do with someone having a look at this!

I think that I had better try and clear up a little of the confusion here. When we first got the Supra we took it to Weston Performance for a MKIV dyno day.

At that time it was showing a readout of over 400 at the flywheel but was running rich, and as we had a friend who had to have an engine rebuild because of his running rich we thought that we had better do something about it so had the Apexi Neo fuel controller fitted and mapped.

Also before fitting the fuel controller the car was hunting on idle, but since fitting we have got better MPG (which sounds weird when talking about a TT Supra), no more hunting problems, the fuelling has been resolved and the engine runs sweet. Personally, and I appreciate that the car is no longer ours, I would not recommend removing the fuel controller.

With respect to the retrospective print out after the Neo was fitted the 447 is at the flywheel, therefore the car is generating approx 400 bhp at the wheels.

It has been down the pod once/ twice and from memory the quarter mile was mid 13's, not bad for an Aerotop with all of the extra weight from the reinforced chasis and and ice install in the boot.

No-one knows what has been done to the car, all that is known is that it appears that Kansai may have had their hands on the car, and that it has a very, very strong engine. We could have paid to have it all pulled apart to see what had been done but why would you want to when it runs so sweet.

So please don't give Billy a hard time, all I can say is that the car is a bit of a dark horse .

 

Yes, we do know better than dynos - take any figures with a pinch of salt and just think of them as tuning aids. The accepted indicative figures for various stages of tune can be seen on the Surrey RR thread on here - Dastek in Fife usually give figures around about the same mark for a similar level of mods, if anything slightly lower figures.

 

Weston have a notoriously optimistic dyno, it tells stories alright lol

 

The main thing is that your car drives well and feels fast to you, just don't expect to leave other BPU Supras for dust.

The curious thing is though is that everyone elses read outs on the dyno day were as they expected, so I see no reason why Weston would tweek ours.

hi are you going to this meet.you seem to know what your talking about could do with someone having a look at this!

Hi Billy,

Nah not going to the meet as sulking about selling my Supra a couple of days ago

I looked up the Neo and it has 16 cells of resolution - what that means is 16 load sites where you can make a fuelling adjustment by telling the ECU it's seeing more or less air than it actually is (the airflow / pressure signal is how it knows how much fuel to inject at any given time). 16 load sites probably means 500rpm increments where you can say + or - a percentage of fuel / airflow.

Weston have taken the piss IMO by saying such an adjustment has given you 77bhp extra - any dyno operator can make it read whatever they like just by changing the dyno 'correction factor', 'ambient temp' or 'pressure' variables. They've had a vested interest in showing a gain or apparent 'money well spent'.

Remember your HKS Kansai ECU (which will just be a Toyota ECU that's been reprogrammed in Japan) is already adjusting your fuelling and timing so now you are fighting that with the Neo. As I say, the mapping of either is probably not brilliant considering the lesser octane value of UK fuel. To protect your engine I'd source a standard ECU and remove the Neo and HKS Kansai ECU, then you're starting from a known quantity mods wise that we know is safe at your boost / mods level.

Tell you what, I'll split our conversation out of the meets thread into a new thread so all the techies can contribute - this club is useful like that

Cheers,

Brian.

Kinda think your being a little harsh here Brian, The poor lads only going off what hes gotten written on a piece of paper. And Im guessing he is fairly new to the club too?!

Best of luck with Dyno day Billy my advise would be not to touch the fuel control, pick a well known and respected mapper and leave it down to them

happy days ill be there with my new 450bhp at the wheels see you all then!!!!come on the celtic!

the dyno tells the hole story.i only bought the car like this on saturday.the turbos mite be hybrid unsure. but if you guys think otherwise fair enough!see you all sunday!

At the wheels?

Hi Billy,

 

Nah not going to the meet as sulking about selling my Supra a couple of days ago

 

I looked up the Neo and it has 16 cells of resolution - what that means is 16 load sites where you can make a fuelling adjustment by telling the ECU it's seeing more or less air than it actually is (the airflow / pressure signal is how it knows how much fuel to inject at any given time). 16 load sites probably means 500rpm increments where you can say + or - a percentage of fuel / airflow.

 

Weston have taken the piss IMO by saying such an adjustment has given you 77bhp extra - any dyno operator can make it read whatever they like just by changing the dyno 'correction factor', 'ambient temp' or 'pressure' variables. They've had a vested interest in showing a gain or apparent 'money well spent'.

 

Remember your HKS Kansai ECU (which will just be a Toyota ECU that's been reprogrammed in Japan) is already adjusting your fuelling and timing so now you are fighting that with the Neo. As I say, the mapping of either is probably not brilliant considering the lesser octane value of UK fuel. To protect your engine I'd source a standard ECU and remove the Neo and HKS Kansai ECU, then you're starting from a known quantity mods wise that we know is safe at your boost / mods level.

 

Tell you what, I'll split our conversation out of the meets thread into a new thread so all the techies can contribute - this club is useful like that

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

I don't understand why you are advising him to start modifying a car which is running without any problems at all. The number of times I have heard about people p***g about with their engines only to start getting over fuelling problems etc... and then having to pay out £'000's pounds to get their cars back on the road. If it was playing up I could understand your comments.

Why would Weston try and rip us off for £500 - it's not really worth it, surely it's just pocket change to them.

I think that I had better try and clear up a little of the confusion here. When we first got the Supra we took it to Weston Performance for a MKIV dyno day.

 

At that time it was showing a readout of over 400 at the flywheel but was running rich, and as we had a friend who had to have an engine rebuild because of his running rich we thought that we had better do something about it so had the Apexi Neo fuel controller fitted and mapped.

 

Also before fitting the fuel controller the car was hunting on idle, but since fitting we have got better MPG (which sounds weird when talking about a TT Supra), no more hunting problems, the fuelling has been resolved and the engine runs sweet. Personally, and I appreciate that the car is no longer ours, I would not recommend removing the fuel controller.

 

With respect to the retrospective print out after the Neo was fitted the 447 is at the flywheel, therefore the car is generating approx 400 bhp at the wheels.

 

It has been down the pod once/ twice and from memory the quarter mile was mid 13's, not bad for an Aerotop with all of the extra weight from the reinforced chasis and and ice install in the boot.

 

No-one knows what has been done to the car, all that is known is that it appears that Kansai may have had their hands on the car, and that it has a very, very strong engine. We could have paid to have it all pulled apart to see what had been done but why would you want to when it runs so sweet.

 

So please don't give Billy a hard time, all I can say is that the car is a bit of a dark horse .

Not giving Billy a hard time - it's best he knows all the facts and can make changes to protect his engine as necessary.

In my view, you've fitted the fuel controller to mask an underlying problem. Running rich is what the vast majority of Supras do - you're far more likely to kill an engine by running lean or with too much timing advance such that it's detonating its tits off

400bhp at the wheels / 447bhp fly is fantasy land for what is essentially a BPU Supra. A mid 13 at pod would indicate the usual 400bhp flywheel tops for a BPU Supra.

I wouldn't say it was a dark horse, more that the ECU mapping combination / devices fighting each other is an unknown quantity and if it was my car I'd be looking to change that.

no chance of me evey touching anything on the car EVER. is dragon lady says and she would know as hes and ian had the car for over 4 years it runs like a dream.but unless the car starts playing up then am move than happy with it.best sup ive had so far !!!

Brian,

This car is a bit of a curiosity, it's always been a bit "special" and seems to have much more power in general. No-one is certain what Kansai have done to the car, To the point where it was suspected that it may have aftermarket cams, with the Kansai map accomodating them. I would suggest that ripping the ECU out just to get to a known baseline is a bad idea with this car.

This was the car that Muffleman had prior to Ian and Sharon buying it from him.

Mike

Not giving Billy a hard time - it's best he knows all the facts and can make changes to protect his engine as necessary.

 

In my view, you've fitted the fuel controller to mask an underlying problem. Running rich is what the vast majority of Supras do - you're far more likely to kill an engine by running lean or with too much timing advance such that it's detonating its tits off

 

400bhp at the wheels / 447bhp fly is fantasy land for what is essentially a BPU Supra. A mid 13 at pod would indicate the usual 400bhp flywheel tops for a BPU Supra.

 

I wouldn't say it was a dark horse, more that the ECU mapping combination / devices fighting each other is an unknown quantity and if it was my car I'd be looking to change that.

Well all I can say is that the car has been running better for the past 3 years since we had the controller fitted, than it ever did before. But I am not getting into argument over the car, it's not mine anymore, all I can say, and I think that this will backed up by alot of people on this forum who know it, is that it an impressive aero and has never had any issues at all.

I must just be a skeptic then

To be clear, I'm not trying to give Billy a hard time but:

1. 447bhp (previously claimed at the wheels) is plain wrong for a car on standard turbos / injectors, especially at 1.1 bar.

2. A fuel controller with very limited adjustment doesn't net 77bhp on a BPU car.

3. A jap mapped ECU / remapped standard ECU is a risk as the mapping is an unknown quantity.

4. The fuel controller is fudging signals to an already altered ECU. This is not a pretty setup.

It's better someone knows this than going to a meet making claims that just raise eyebrows for the wrong reasons and TBH I'd rather say these things than see Billy post up how his engine needs a rebuild further down the line...

TDR can i ask, what power figure are you running to manage to get 121mph in the quarter mile with little more than a self mapped ecu?

I'm just asking as you said Mid 13's would indicate the usual 400hp from a bpu supra, you are in the mid 11's with standard turbo's and fuel system so this would indicate to me you are pushing alot more than 400hp on standard turbo's

I was at that dyno day, along with several other long time members on here, Pete, Burna, both of the Nums amongst others, and i have to say that imho the dyno was reading fairly well spot on for the cars that were there - there was probably 10 different supras dynoed that day and I would say that the readings were as close to accurate as you can get.

If I had any comment, it would be that the boost reading on westons dyno was low, probably due to the length of the pipe connected to their pressure sensor. My run also showed 1.1 bar on their readings, but both my avcr and greddy boost gauge showed 1.2 on my run - my dyno sheet is in my garage.

TDR can i ask, what power figure are you running to manage to get 121mph in the quarter mile with little more than a self mapped ecu?

I'm just asking as you said Mid 13's would indicate the usual 400hp from a bpu supra, you are in the mid 11's with standard turbo's and fuel system so this would indicate to me you are pushing alot more than 400hp on standard turbo's

TDR's (ex)car is a bit unusual because it is an auto with a high-stall torque converter, so it gets off the line much quicker and therefore gets into its stride earlier which means it makes a better ¼mile top speed and time than its power would otherwise achieve.

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As for the rest of the thread; we've been here before...

• Scene One: Dyno Operator gives his satisfied customer an optimistic flywheel power figure.
   
  
• Scene Two: Customer starts quoting this figure to all and sundry, but now claims it as rwhp (making the original inflated-a-bit figure truly ridiculous.)
   
  
• Scene Three: Forum bunfight ensues.
  

If it has the stock 440cc injectors and FPR, Billy Bhoy's car cannot make 447hp@Flywheel. It is physically impossible for a 6 cylinder turbo engine to make more than 415hp with this fuelling setup because 440cc/min injectors cannot flow enough fuel to make >415hp.

Of course, people always believe that their car is "a good'un" and/or that it was mysteriously tweaked to some unknown spec by a previous owner - which is apparently why it can bend the laws of physics and is able to extract significantly more power from the injected fuel than is mathematically possible.

But Hey, who cares? Just enjoy the car and its power. It's been running this setup for several years without an issue. So it seems to be running OK.

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ps,

IMO ¼ miles times are not a good indicator of power but ¼ top speed is. (I believe TDR and many others agree). Good ¼ times are very dependant on the 60' times, the top speed less so.

Post up a photo of an injector in the rail...preferbly near the front of the rail as you might get a shot of the FPR in there as well.

There's nothing to say it isn't a enuine 450bhp car with different cams, built bottom end, ridiculous hybrids and then a poorly setup Jap ecu that was overfuelling and sucking out power. Putting that right (with this piggyback thing) could then release this 77bhp figure but things would have to be pretty bad to begin with.

Of course, it could all be BS