joke Windows 7 Phones V The World.

The fact is Scott M is completely right: WP7 is floundering, flailing and will drown. It's fighting too many battles on too many fronts - it's battling a lack of software, a poor market image, mediocre hardware and their everlasting standards compliance aversion. The fact is Microsoft WP7 is the worst of the three, but that's not its biggest problem, the MS brand is toxic, not to consumers who're basically positive to indifferent, but to developers who don't trust them and have no faith in them to make headway, so won't invest their time creating software. I know I wont.

You argument has the same pattern I find with MS bashers but my argument is objective, not talking about MS and their TOXIC practices but I am talking about WP7's user centric features.

I'd just like to add that Zune is also pretty bad... although I admit much better than the abysmal iTunes!

What's wrong with just dragging and dropping what you want onto the phone?

Never said that drag n drop is wrong. Also if you look at zune as a syncing software for the phone it is as bad as iTunes but as a subscription based media streaming software, it is not bad.

Just to add to that, the brand power of M$ is infinitely greater than any Android manufacturer when it first came out. The lemming consumer would always choose a brand they know over a brand they don't, regardless of how good the product is. It's only after word spread and people started taking notice that the Android phones took off.

 

2010 Q4

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Smartphone_share_current.png/240px-Smartphone_share_current.png

 

And I very much doubt there has been any change other than better for Android, and worse for Windows Mobile.

Anyway WP7 wont be a dominant mobile platform overtaking Android or iOS. But it will be a contender for the 3rd place overtaking RIM & Symbian (as Nokia is ditching Symbian). Coming to an objective comparison of pro n corns of the WP7 OS I will stick with my argument in post #30 that it is the better of the OSes in the market including iOS and Android, also on your samsung device, it would be great with WP7 + Mango on that amazing hardware rather than android.

Also I will stick with my paradigm shift we are seeing in the market (also seen from WWDC/iOS5) that we should move away from file/data/app centric systems to more integrated information centric/intelligent systems.

There's plenty of apps on android that work with each other, it just depends how they are designed.

There's plenty of apps on android that work with each other, it just depends how they are designed.

Shh, he's being objective remember.

There's plenty of apps on android that work with each other, it just depends how they are designed.

Oh yeah ... how about security when one app uses data from another app? This is something that needs to be plumbed into the OS. May be one app on android can query a free webservice or cloud based service on another app as long as they dont need any user login permissions into apps. In WP7 the authentication between app transaction are handles by the OS. Please read my post #6 again esp the ones in quotes.

Or else you can explain to me if you want to post 3 pics one from each of you flickr, facebook & photobucket accounts onto a forum how would you do that in Android?

Anyway WP7 wont be a dominant mobile platform overtaking Android or iOS. But it will be a contender for the 3rd place overtaking RIM & Symbian (as Nokia is ditching Symbian). Coming to an objective comparison of pro n corns of the WP7 OS I will stick with my argument in post #30 that it is the better of the OSes in the market including iOS and Android, also on your samsung device, it would be great with WP7 + Mango on that amazing hardware rather than android.

 

Also I will stick with my paradigm shift we are seeing in the market (also seen from WWDC/iOS5) that we should move away from file/data/app centric systems to more integrated information centric/intelligent systems.

Yeah, I'm tempted to point out that you've found a brilliance un-discovered by the the most objective of reviewers. I didn'tsay MS's practiceswere toxic, only their brand and I was quite clear that that toxicity only extended as far as the developer base, but that that would be enough to bury them, because developers' apps are the mainstay of the smartphone landscape. Unless MS embraces open standards, WP7 will die, only marketshare forced us to pour hours into IE hoop jumping, coming from behind, MS's intransigence will simply make it more frustrating to deliver content to. Furthermore, I struggle to see how MS will overtake RIM, they have something MS will.never be able to emulate: a genuine B2B appeal and a mass market perception of security. Even without its chequered past, MS would BT cursed by own.goals like Yahoo mail's 700% data usage.

Yeah, I'm tempted to point out that you've found a brilliance un-discovered by the the most objective of reviewers. I didn'tsay MS's practiceswere toxic, only their brand and I was quite clear that that toxicity only extended as far as the developer base, but that that would be enough to bury them, because developers' apps are the mainstay of the smartphone landscape. Unless MS embraces open standards, WP7 will die, only marketshare forced us to pour hours into IE hoop jumping, coming from behind, MS's intransigence will simply make it more frustrating to deliver content to. Furthermore, I struggle to see how MS will overtake RIM, they have something MS will.never be able to emulate: a genuine B2B appeal and a mass market perception of security. Even without its chequered past, MS would BT cursed by own.goals like Yahoo mail's 700% data usage.

You are steering the argument in totally different direction ... Away from mobiles to MS business practices ... Another typical MS basher argument of MS not complying with web standards ... here we go ...

Open Standards:

------

Do you know the difference between open standards and open platforms with open source? MS has been fine with open standards for dogs years now - yeah they were not supporting web standards that well compared to their competition esp in Internet Explorer like 8-10 years ago. I dont have time to discuss about those time. Open platform ... No you dont have to show your source code to everybody. It is your IP and you have the rights to release them or not. If MS is not embracing Open standards then you dont see TCP/IP communication in MS comm stack. USB support n printer support across different companies. But you do. Almost every product I know from MS has been opened up with an SDK n an API for any developer to use the IP. This includes the latest SDKs for Kinect & Azure.

How do you think google docs and open office can let you open, edit & save proprietary MS office documents if they dont comply to open document standards / ECMA Standard - OpenXML standard??

Lets us talk about web standards ...

--------

Is HTML 5 standardized already?? http://ishtml5readyyet.com/

So why is everybody implementing stuff that is not already standardized and each one doing things in a little different way resulting in an HTML5 page function totally different in different browsers. mind you when you say browsers there is literally only 2 different kinds. Ones that use Webkit and the ones that dont use webkit. Firefox, Opera, Safari n Chrome use Webkit n they say they are the standard. IE doesnot use webkit so they do things differently n also IE6 was used heavily in enterprise and a lot of applications run on IE6 back in the days of 2002-2006. So backward compatibility was and is a problem for MS to take care of with every release of IE. Who came first with GPU hardware accelerated browser? Even MS knows that IE6 is pulling them down from going full on on open standards for Web. Remember always web standards are always slow to evolve. This is the reason why MS finally decided to go with HTML 5 labs (http://html5labs.com/) to show help developers due to unspecified and unstable W3C web standards for HTML5.

Coming to Blackberry RIM

------------

Dude Blackberry is finished. I will give them 6 months before somebody is going to buy them off prob by MS. Their share price and market value is on a free fall. They lost 35% of their market capitalization in 1 year!! Their table strategy is nothing but a joke. Closed the tablet arm of the business. http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2011/06/22/rim-youre-done-here/

What about new apps in to the RIm market, any new blodd of developers in the market ... it is going no where.

Coming to WP7 (back on the topic of mobile phone OSes after a bit of deviation)

---------

Sorry but I have yet to see any bad reviews of WP7 on any tech sites recently - Who tend to be generally objective then forums where members post are pretty much subjective. All tech site have only good things to talk about mango. Btw WP7 app store broke 25000 apps today. It took them just 6 months compared to android store which took then 15 months to break this. Apple App store reached this number in a week under 6 months.

Do me a favour bud. If you want to continue this kind of discussion please do so in your own thread. You have single handedly taken this thread WAY off topic, you even went off topic from the original nature that you went off topic with.

You insinuated that we were all buying the wrong phone and that they are rubbish compared to WP7, during this time you have contorted the discussion into what it is now, and as far as this thread goes, pointless IMO. Noone is really interested in your opinion on any M$ product as you come across like a bit of a fanatic IMO. You use the word objective but you are about as objective as Bill himself. FWIW the WP7 gets reasonable reviews, but still not a patch on what the main brand smartphones are getting (iPhone4, Samsung Galaxy S2, HTC Sensation, etc) so clearly your unbiased, objective opinion is very warped.

However, you did ask a question which I read last night and had a think about. Something along the lines of how to attach 3 images from 3 different file hosters.....

Who would want to do this? What would be their reasoning for doing this? Does this not smack of desperation on your part? You are picking out little tricks that the WP7 can probably do (I don't know as I haven't tried) that other phones doesn't. They don't for a reason..... IMO noone needs to or wants to do those sort of operations. If you do those operations, and need the phone to operate in that way, then fair enough. You will be part of the dwindling minority buying this phone.

Everything regarding the WP7 being better than the other phones mentioned is purely your opinion, none of it is down to statistics. In reviews the other phones come up on top, in sales they come up on top and in development they come up on top.

So do we actually like these phones? Yes... we do. And you won't change our minds with your preaching "but the good book says" methods. You will only annoy us.

Do me a favour bud. If you want to continue this kind of discussion please do so in your own thread. You have single handedly taken this thread WAY off topic, you even went off topic from the original nature that you went off topic with.

 

You insinuated that we were all buying the wrong phone and that they are rubbish compared to WP7, during this time you have contorted the discussion into what it is now, and as far as this thread goes, pointless IMO. Noone is really interested in your opinion on any M$ product as you come across like a bit of a fanatic IMO. You use the word objective but you are about as objective as Bill himself. FWIW the WP7 gets reasonable reviews, but still not a patch on what the main brand smartphones are getting (iPhone4, Samsung Galaxy S2, HTC Sensation, etc) so clearly your unbiased, objective opinion is very warped.

 

However, you did ask a question which I read last night and had a think about. Something along the lines of how to attach 3 images from 3 different file hosters.....

 

Who would want to do this? What would be their reasoning for doing this? Does this not smack of desperation on your part? You are picking out little tricks that the WP7 can probably do (I don't know as I haven't tried) that other phones doesn't. They don't for a reason..... IMO noone needs to or wants to do those sort of operations. If you do those operations, and need the phone to operate in that way, then fair enough. You will be part of the dwindling minority buying this phone.

 

Everything regarding the WP7 being better than the other phones mentioned is purely your opinion, none of it is down to statistics. In reviews the other phones come up on top, in sales they come up on top and in development they come up on top.

 

So do we actually like these phones? Yes... we do. And you won't change our minds with your preaching "but the good book says" methods. You will only annoy us.

I have been objective in all my posts by explaining every point I made with an example scenario. None of the guys who made counter arguments gave the same response neither answered my questions about end user usage scenarios. If you disagree then please read the later section in my post #30.

Sorry Scott, steering this thread in this direction is not at all my intention. One argument led to another and another n ended up like this. I am just pointing out a paradigm shift coming to all the mobile OSes. The front runners for this paradigm being WP7 & iOS5. This is the a similar multitouch/app centric ecosystem based paradigm shift that came about with the first iPhone that made it such a big success.

Ok, I know it's on the first page but I'd like to get back to the initial post. The one that kicked off all this hullabaloo. Let's get to the bottom of this...

Honestly you guys like these??

Yes, hardly surprising as they are one of the top phones in the market/production today. Most popular high end phone by quite some way. What isn't there to like?

I think hardware on this is very good but what about battery life?

Battery life is as you would expect. A day of hardcore usage. What else on the market has the features of not just a phone but of a fully blown entertainment device that can run more than 1 day at full use?

Duel cores suck at battery life n the worst bit of all on this phone is the android OS (it is the old win mobile with a bit more apps + multitouch).

2 Points here. Firstly you are talking nonsense. Dual cores (duel is a fight btw) use less energy than single cores do to do the same operation. Proven fact. I would have thought, given your objective nature, that you would have looked into that in order to put forward an objective point of view.

2nd point - What are you smoking? You think the Android OS is anything like an old winmobile? How on earth can you come to that conclusion? Can you give me examples of how they are the same?

Been seeing then for almost 10 years on various mobile platforms - grids of icons + a taskbar to kill the various unnecessary tasks + file explorer!

The grids of icons is down to the layout the user chooses. It has been a traditional way of showing apps etc as the system works very well. The homescreens on the phone are different, they are entirely customiseable with widgets, apps, icons, shortcuts, contacts, etc..... if you want it you can have it on the homescreen. I chose some often used program shortcuts, a slideshow of my daughter, a couple of live apps and a calculator.

The task-kill isn't necessary with android. It's an added feature in the latest version as millions of users decided to download and install 3rd party task killers for their own preference. Android saw what the users wanted and gave it to them, it's a purely optional feature as the memory handling on Android phones is VERY slick.

If it aint broke, don't fix it. Why mess with a tried and trusted way of working? Very user friendly, very intuitive and easy to understand. No point in complicating matters as long as it works, and works well, there is no compromise necessary.

When will these OS go from data/file level + app centric level to information/intelligence level with out app boundaries. This is the new paradigm for the current and next generation. Apple got a head start but WP7 will let you all realise and achieve this level.

You mean like the hubs already in the Galaxy SII?

I like turtles

2nd point - What are you smoking? You think the Android OS is anything like an old winmobile? How on earth can you come to that conclusion? Can you give me examples of how they are the same?

 

The grids of icons is down to the layout the user chooses. It has been a traditional way of showing apps etc as the system works very well. The homescreens on the phone are different, they are entirely customiseable with widgets, apps, icons, shortcuts, contacts, etc..... if you want it you can have it on the homescreen. I chose some often used program shortcuts, a slideshow of my daughter, a couple of live apps and a calculator.

 

The task-kill isn't necessary with android. It's an added feature in the latest version as millions of users decided to download and install 3rd party task killers for their own preference. Android saw what the users wanted and gave it to them, it's a purely optional feature as the memory handling on Android phones is VERY slick.

 

If it aint broke, don't fix it. Why mess with a tried and trusted way of working? Very user friendly, very intuitive and easy to understand. No point in complicating matters as long as it works, and works well, there is no compromise necessary.

I dont know whether you used Windows Mobile 5/6/6.5 phones. This OS was killed after it provided no competition for iPhone and even though there are a few thousands of apps they were not managed properly like an app store/market place right now. I will only give you two examples of the last Win Mobile 6 phones (the last ones I have used) HTC HD2 & Samsung Omnia i900. These phones came into the market almost an year before Android V1.0 got released. Though all of the mobile at that time are running WinMob 6> like HP, Dell, Samsung, LG, Toshiba, Asus, SonyErricson, Nokia etc eachones has their own user interface on the top of the OS. It is customizable and there are loads of ROMs available from XDA Developers forum that can change the whole look n feel - UI/themes. I used to be active on the XDA developers forum from 2004 - 2008. All this is way back before anybody thought of creating Android.

I am only going to put in a

Samsung Omnia i900:

Samsung Omnia has Touch Wiz UI. Yes there are WIDGETS on the screen and you can drag and drop them any widget on the screen. It has grids of icons for applications/programs, a task manager to see the various tasks running in the memory with an option to kill the tasks. A file explorer, a USB access to the phone storage from a PC with drag n drop and Active Sync as a sync software for any files, outlook mail & calender events, music & video. These are enterprise worthy with outlook sync and has option for encrypted storage. Also have bluetooth support for streaming audio in a car. Also has Wifi, tethering & VPN capabilities to connect to an office netwrok. Also has an remote desktop access app to remotely connect to a computer on the internet or on the network. All of these phones came with office Mobile as standard. 8MP camera, 48GB storage with 16GB internal and 32GB MicroSD. Has video conferencing on 3G also have Skype voip app. Came with builtin google maps, opera browser and a lot of 3rd party companies offering apps (not in hundreds of thousands but in thousands). I bought Copilot GPS navigation app on my phone. All of this in 2007 & 2008. The following are some screen shots for you ... you can decide it for yourself.

Widgets on the home screen you can customize ..

http://widgetslab.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/LatestSamsungOmniaROMleakgotaWidgetFever_536/samsungomniawidget2.jpg

http://www.phone-guide-germany.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/omnia-zwei-6.jpg

http://images.brighthub.com/dd/8/dd82bad7d528d10fc565b8c990c43e6ce8f6779e_large.jpg

Market Place with apps.

http://mobile.broadbandindia.com/uploaded_images/windows-mobile-6.5-717400.jpg

File Explorer with encryption:

http://wmkits.com/images/guides/how-to-encrypt-files-on-your-windows-mobile-2.jpg

Has full office mobile with excel, word, powerpoint etc.

http://www.navigadget.com/wp-content/postimages/2008/08/omnia-900.jpg

http://www.widgetslab.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/image16.png

This is Omnia spec from 2008 and early 2009.

http://www.unwiredview.com/2009/06/15/samsung-omnia-ii-i8000-and-omnia-lite-b7300-smartphones-announced/

These WinMob 6> phones came with Microsoft MyPhone service that is used for Back up your phone automatically on to the web (MS Cloud), share photos on your favorite social networking sites, access your contacts, text messages and more online for free and locate your lost phone and lock the data on it for good.

Yes Android is quite slick compared to WinMobile. There were no multi touch screens until iPhone came out. Everybody was using Stylus and all of the WinMob phones came with a stylus. Smart phones post iPhone comes with multitouch. Android is slick and has support for multitouch. Other than these difference there is no much difference between Android now and WinMob of the past.

Will continue with HTC HD2 with sense UI in my next post ... Would be happy to hear your views.

HTC HD2 or HTC Pro 2 .. contd ... (future post)

Here we go again.

Listen bud, if you aren't going to answer any points or questions I put to you then I'm not even going to bother replying to you.

If you want to reply to me... quote my post and reply to my questions. If you just want to rant on.... then knock yourself out and I'll declare myself out.

I should read this properly at some stage and then I'll comment

Here we go again.

 

Listen bud, if you aren't going to answer any points or questions I put to you then I'm not even going to bother replying to you.

 

If you want to reply to me... quote my post and reply to my questions. If you just want to rant on.... then knock yourself out and I'll declare myself out.

It is very much evident from my previous post that I am responding in support of my argument that Android is nothing but a version (go as far as saying a subset version) of WinMob 6.5. Which IS answering one of your questions. Updated my prev post with this. If you think I ma not right ... just give me ONE thing/reason what is different in Andrtoid that is not already done in WinMob 6.5 (other than Multitouch, Linux Kernel & more apps in app store)

I'm out.

Enjoy

If you think I ma not right ... just give me ONE thing/reason what is different in Andrtoid that is not already done in WinMob 6.5 (other than Multitouch, Linux Kernel & more apps in app store)

You answered it yourself.

So by your opinion, everything is based on windows?

You answered it yourself.

 

So by your opinion, everything is based on windows?

No I never said Android is based on Win Mob. It is obviously bases on linux kernel and pretty much every thing written in Java. But what I dont find is any difference between WinMob 6.5 phones and Android Phones. There were a plethora of WinMob phone manufacturers like HP. Dell, Siemens, Asus, Nokia, HTC, LG, Samsung, Toshiba, Motorola, Sony Erricson, Sharp, Acer etc etc (I would go even as far as saying that there were more WinMob manufacturer than there are current android phone manufacturers). Each of these manufacturers could customize the UI on each of their phones to make them feel a bit unique and different though underneath the UI and themes it is the same WinMob OS. And on the top of this we have the XDA forum pumping out new ROMS and updates all the time into the market. So if anybody is not happy with the carrier or manufacturers UI/Themes they can flash the new ROMs from XDA developers.

Samsung came out with a few UIs, the last one is Touchwiz. After MS dropped WinMob, samsung ported this UI onto Android. Same is the case with HTC. They had Sense UI for dogs years in WinMob. Then this got ported also onto Android. As WinMob is like a lighter version of PC software it supported both .NET framework and JAVA runtimes. I suppose these manufacturers might have written these UIs in Java which helped them to port them easily onto Android which is JAVA ONLY platform.

MS scrapped WinMob because of the emergence of multi touch screens. They decided to rewrite the whole OS rather than implement mutitouch into the existing WinMob 6.5 code. Also all the apps written for WinMob 6.5 are not written for multi touch.

Anyway if I go to any phone retail store and look at an Android device, I am blown away with the kind of hardware the manufacturers are bringing to the phones. This is the kind of hardware I had on my laptop in 2006. Coming to the software, (sorry might upset some of you guys) but for me Android looks another iterations of WinMob 6.5 rather a good iteration. The look and feel of the UI is 99% the same. I dont see anything special or innovative in Android rather it looks like an OS following the technology curve not ahead (like apple did). Yes google bundles a lot of their services which is nice and they have made their services way better than they were in 2006/07 and optimized from Android phones.

This is a biggie:

All the open platform stuff is a serious myth as there were more manufacturers who adopted WinMob 6.5 and there were more ROMs on XDA developer forums for WinMob6.5 than they are now for Android. Because WinMob supported both .NET ad Java, you can be a developer from any language background like, C++, Java, C#, VB etc etc and still you could develop native applications for WinMob. Android only supports Java.

Another issue is, as the OS is just the same in WinMob 6.5 (locked down) across all manufacturers, apps written for one phone could be run on another manufacturers phone (as long as the hardware is similar). Which is the presently same with most of Android applications but as the OS is open source each manufacturer can change the OS and making their own customized version/flavour of Android and this will cause a lot of problems in the future. Also each can go ahead and add extra hardware making the apps incompatible. An application written for Motorola Android will not work on Samsung version of Android or HTCs version of Android.

If any of you are new to the smart phones and only started using them in the last 2-3 years, I can tell you for now Android looks nice and good for you but in a couple of years down the line you will get bored of customizations and different incompatible versions of OS between manf and also due to more fragmentation within Android. Unless google gets their act together and locks down the OS and also puts a minimum spec on the hardware it will go through the same hell as WinMob.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/five-reasons-android-can-fail/9147

iPhone wins,

The end.

No I never said Android is based on Win Mob.

didnt you?

Honestly you guys like these?? I think hardware on this is very good but what about battery life? Duel cores suck at battery life n the worst bit of all on this phone is the android OS (it is the old win mobile with a bit more apps + multitouch).

Ha ha , everybody loves to Hate Microsoft; just as well Apple and Google have a good PR dept! MS , Google, Apple are all as bad as one another; everything is profit driven, no hang on I forgot Google and Apple are ethnically and morally the blueprint for a corporate company ha ha!

A few years back who would have said Sony would be in the position they are now, and the Kinect over doing the WII! Next OS released by MS I think will be a big surprise to the smart phone community, give it 1-2 years MS will be up there competing for market share, and as a consumer I hope they do -- choice is good and competiton drives inovation!

For now I will stick to an Android/IPhone but I definetly would not rule out MS!

You cannot denie hub-centric system is a smart intuitive piece of architecture!It is the Direction to go!

Kinect took over the wii???

Did hell freeze over?