Big Brake Kits - Real Numbers

How do I create a table guys? Should I just paste one in as an image - would that be easiest?

So far I have the following common "Kits" completed:

• Brembo 14" monoblock with 13.58" rear
  
• AP 356mm road kit with AP/Stillen 330mm rear
  
• AP 356mm road kit with UK rear
  
• KAD 17" front kit with UK rear
  
• KAD 18" 356mm kit (six pot rear caliper)
  
• KAD 19" 378mm kit (six pot rear caliper)
  

I am waiting for some rear caliper info from Paul Whiffin to allow me to finish these two and add them straight in:

• Garage Whifbitz 362mm front and 343mm rear race kit
  
• Garage Whifbitz 343mm rear road kit (to compliment AP's 356mm front road kit)
  

I am also waiting for some feedback from jme on his KSport 356mm front and rear kit and then I can add that.

And I could also include two specials as I have the info for these although they aren't real kits:

• AMG Brembo 8pot 360mm front and 4 pot rear 330mm kit (Paul Mac's)
  
• Alcon 6 pot 365mm front monoblock and Alcon 4 pot rear 324mm monoblock (Mine)
  

Does anyone have a Stoptech kit and want to help out by supplying some info?

[table=head;sort=1]No.|Manufacturer|Rating|Size|etc

1|Brembo|5|etc |etc

2|Alcon|5|etc |etc

[/table]

.

Added a table to your post Dan, you should be able to copy/paste/edit as needed.

How do I create a table guys? Should I just paste one in as an image - would that be easiest?

 

So far I have the following common "Kits" completed:

• Brembo 14" monoblock with 13.58" rear
  
• AP 356mm road kit with AP/Stillen 330mm rear
  
• AP 356mm road kit with UK rear
  
• KAD 17" front kit with UK rear
  
• KAD 18" 356mm kit (six pot rear caliper)
  
• KAD 19" 378mm kit (six pot rear caliper)
  

I am waiting for some rear caliper info from Paul Whiffin to allow me to finish these two and add them straight in:

• Garage Whifbitz 362mm front and 343mm rear race kit
  
• Garage Whifbitz 343mm rear road kit (to compliment AP's 356mm front road kit)
  

 

I am also waiting for some feedback from jme on his KSport 356mm front and rear kit and then I can add that.

 

And I could also include two specials as I have the info for these although they aren't real kits:

• AMG Brembo 8pot 360mm front and 4 pot rear 330mm kit (Paul Mac's)
  
• Alcon 6 pot 365mm front monoblock and Alcon 4 pot rear 324mm monoblock (Mine)
  

 

Does anyone have a Stoptech kit and want to help out by supplying some info?

 

 

 

[table=head;sort=1]No.|Manufacturer|Rating|Size|etc

1|Brembo|5|etc |etc

2|Alcon|5|etc |etc

 

[/table]

.

I will pm you in a couple of days Dan to get the info you want.

I've been busy with work lately, but I see some quiter days coming soon. I have the STOPTECH ST40 kit (4 pot / disc size 355 x 32mm) front and rear.

Cheers

Luc

Added a table to your post Dan, you should be able to copy/paste/edit as needed.

Thank you Steve, I'll give it a go....looks like it might be a bit long winded though as my table is pretty big

I will pm you in a couple of days Dan to get the info you want.

I've been busy with work lately, but I see some quiter days coming soon. I have the STOPTECH ST40 kit (4 pot / disc size 355 x 32mm) front and rear.

 

Cheers

 

Luc

That would be great Luc - I'm sure everyone would love to know how the Stoptech kit compares.Give me a shout when you're free to do a few measurements....the most awkward one is measuring the piston sizes (anywhere from 28-42mm in 2mm steps) but according to this info it can be done without taking the caliper off

http://www.zeckhausen.com/How_to_Measure_Pistons.htm

No prob Dan.

I am busy with my Supe getting i through MOT over ther right now (it failed). It passed the last 2 years without problems, but suddenly they want German TUV papers for the single conversion, coilovers, Stoptech brakes, etc.

I got the necessary papers today, but they are still not happy as the TUV guy forgot to put my 19" rims on the certificate .. so I am heading back to germany again onThursday.

By the end of the week, everything should be fine .. so I will pm you on Friday.

Cheers

P.S. I will take the wheels off during the W-E to lower the coilovers (I had to raise them to access the MOT station) .. so I can also take some pics if needed.

No prob Dan.

 

I am busy with my Supe getting i through MOT over ther right now (it failed). It passed the last 2 years without problems, but suddenly they want German TUV papers for the single conversion, coilovers, Stoptech brakes, etc.

 

I got the necessary papers today, but they are still not happy as the TUV guy forgot to put my 19" rims on the certificate .. so I am heading back to germany again onThursday.

 

By the end of the week, everything should be fine .. so I will pm you on Friday.

 

Cheers

 

P.S. I will take the wheels off during the W-E to lower the coilovers (I had to raise them to access the MOT station) .. so I can also take some pics if needed.

Good man - thanks. That sounds like a total ball ache with the MOT, hope you get it all sorted.

OK well let's try these.

All previous caveats apply regarding variables kept the same such as force applied to pedal, pad friction material, temperature etc. No allowance is made for caliper stiffness, wear rates of floating mechanisms, noise from floating mechanisms, corrosion, serviceability, availability of replacement parts etc.

These things do play a role but in order to make any fair comparison (and especially to calculate the front to rear brake bias) they have to be ignored. As far as I am aware nobody markets a kit that has to use a different pad compound front to rear in order to get the correct bias and the figures certainly seem to support this.

I didn't really want to comment on anything other than the mechanicals of these kits as anything else (perhaps with the exception of caliper stiffness and its importance for brake feel) could be seen as opinionated and not fair on traders etc. This is a non opinion based comparison of the mechanical design of these kits. Please let me know if you think I have made any mistakes and I will be more than happy to change them.

Thank you to the people that helped with weights, measurements etc - Jevansio, Lee P, Luxluc, M5W TT, Ricky49, Paul Mac and probably a few more.

I am waiting on some info from Mr Whiffin for the "Garage Whifbitz AP Race" kit and also the "Garage Whifbitz Road" AP rear kit. As with the Stoptech info from Luxluc - once I have it, I will add it to these comparisons.

Hopefully someone somewhere will find this interesting or useful!

Basic comparison:

Bias in graphical format:

Available brake torque in graphical format:

And here are a few posts which help show what the floating hardware looks like for some of these kits. With any luck people can look at the pictures and the table and see where the "float" actually happens, which bits are likely to wear etc etc.

Brembo Monoblock

Brembo Floating Hardware - Front and Rear

KAD 378mm Kit

KAD (AP) Floating Hardware - Front Only

AP Road Kit

AP Non Floating Bolted Hardware - Front and Rear

Stoptech ST40

Stoptech Floating Hardware - Front Only (Rear float/bolt hardware TBC)

Alcon Monoblock - Custom for front and rear (but a front kit is available)

Alcon Floating Hardware - Front Only

AMG Brembo - Custom for front and rear

AMG Floating Hardware - Front and Rear

AP Race Garage Whifbitz (Pics and info for table coming soon hopefully)

Awesome stuff Dan!

The info on the AP / Stillen rear kit just needs a slight correction though, as I'm pretty sure the mounting bracket is aluminium, and I'm certain the disc bell is. (I had to drill a hole into it to access the handbrake adjustment mechanism).

Awesome stuff Dan!

 

The info on the AP / Stillen rear kit just needs a slight correction though, as I'm pretty sure the mounting bracket is aluminium, and I'm certain the disc bell is. (I had to drill a hole into it to access the handbrake adjustment mechanism).

No sweat mate - be good if you could check your Stillen kit for us. The pdf they sent me says the bell is iron and the bracket is 1018...."for maximum strength"

Edit: Could yours be an early kit perhaps? This is an AP0550 kit.

Fantastic work dan

The only thing is the basic comparison table can be a little harsh on your eyes

Alcon look to be a nice upgrade

I tried a few colours for the table to try to get it clear and crisp but it wasn't easy. As it's so bloody big it loses clarity when it's shrunk and converted to a pic. I'll try some other colours and see what the general opinion is.

The Alcons are truly excellent calipers and the float hardware is robust and silent but unforunately there's only a front kit available off the shelf. Anything for the rear would have to be custom made.

The colour scheme is fine just the words are a little small for some eyes

Your doing a alcon rear setup with UK disc correct?

The colour scheme is fine just the words are a little small for some eyes

Yep sorry about that! Perhaps I should split it into two tables and make everything bigger, especially as a couple of people have got in touch about adding details for other kits. I could also remove the two custom kits (the full Alcon setup and Paul's AMG Brembo setup) as they're not easily available to everyone - that would knock out two columns.

Your doing a alcon rear setup with UK disc correct?

That's the plan but it's on hold at the moment as I've got one arm in a sling - typical! I have everything I need except the rear pads (hopefully arriving this week) and rear caliper brackets.

Absolutely fantastic...

Might suggest taking the table out and moving it a new thread for reference and loose the chit-chat.

That's the plan but it's on hold at the moment as I've got one arm in a sling - typical! I have everything I need except the rear pads (hopefully arriving this week) and rear caliper brackets.

Ill keep my eyes pealed. Ive always been a fan of alcons

Great Job!

I would some info added if possible?

The j spec brakes and the Uk brakes in the big table thingy

because then newbies or people like me dont have to search the forum for dimension and weights and such.

since you have done such an awesome job so far maybe you can put it in pretty pls :-)

i almost had a setup of porsche gt2 brakes but after looking at this thread i backed out.

there is so much information to take into chosing the calipers and discs that i needed to educate myself and reading this and some other offsprings from this has helped much.

Absolutely fantastic...

 

Might suggest taking the table out and moving it a new thread for reference and loose the chit-chat.

I'm happy for it to be moved/binned/adjusted - whatever will allow people to get some use from it.

I would still like to add in the info for the Whifbitz AP stuff when Paul has a chance to dig that out. It looks like the Jap spec also needs adding in plus there'll be Stoptech info from Luxluc and the K-Sport 356/356 kit info should be headed my way shortly from another member.

Do you want to move it first and if so, will I still be able to edit/replace the images it once it's moved?

Ill keep my eyes pealed. Ive always been a fan of alcons

Will keep you posted; I might do a little chat thread once I start the install/fabrication. Pads should arrive tomorrow

Great Job!

 

I would some info added if possible?

 

The j spec brakes and the Uk brakes in the big table thingy

 

because then newbies or people like me dont have to search the forum for dimension and weights and such.

 

since you have done such an awesome job so far maybe you can put it in pretty pls :-)

 

i almost had a setup of porsche gt2 brakes but after looking at this thread i backed out.

 

there is so much information to take into chosing the calipers and discs that i needed to educate myself and reading this and some other offsprings from this has helped much.

I don't have any info for the Jap spec stuff but I am more than happy to add it in once I have it...you're not the first person to ask.

I'm glad you found it useful and it potentially saved you some £££ and grief.

what a great thread Dan, this knackered shoulder of yours is really paying dividends for the forum mate

Dan, any chance you could take a look at the AP CP6600 calipers and let me know your thoughts, it states they are for 330mm discs but I would be looking to use them with stock sized discs if possible which I believe are 323mm.

http://www.apracing.com/info/products.asp?product=CP6600+Family+-+130mm+Mounting+Centres+-+Suits+%D8330mm+Disc+_2760_2569

what a great thread Dan, this knackered shoulder of yours is really paying dividends for the forum mate

Thanks Paul

Dan, any chance you could take a look at the AP CP6600 calipers and let me know your thoughts, it states they are for 330mm discs but I would be looking to use them with stock sized discs if possible which I believe are 323mm.

 

http://www.apracing.com/pics/productpics/cp6600_2.jpg

No problem at all mate, will get on it tomorrow.

No problem at all mate, will get on it tomorrow.

Top stuff, thanks. I am wondering if I can up the disc size to 330mm and still get under my wheels.

On the stock 323mm discs you'd be down by approx 13% on combined braking torque and the bias increases to the rear by 3%.

On a pair of 330mm discs you'd be down by approx 11% on combined braking torque and the bias increases to the rear by 2.5%.

In both cases I expect you'd be fine. On a track I assume you'll be running a race compound pad so you can easily make up for, and far surpass, the deficiencies in braking torque so they are irrelevant really. The main thing is the brake bias shifting to the rear slightly. I'm sure CW has his thoughts on how much extra rear bias a MKIV could take in track form (there's a whole heap of inputs and variables) but I suspect the 3% would be ok.