Oil pump (crankshaft front) oil seal failures

OK here at last are some pics of my pump! not quite what i expected, i will also try and get some better pics done, first off there is not lots of ware/scoring, however the inner rotor has score marks on both the mating surface where it meets the inner bearing surface of the front and the recess that it sits in, and the only other ware can be seen on the back plate where the outer rotor mates with it but both these marks/scoring are no more than 0.002 in

but i guess enough to cause the leak, TBH i would have liked to have seen more evidence of damage!

That pump is goosed. If you phone me next week I have some news for you.

It's nice to see some photo's Tricky-Ricky, good work

I'll give you a call next week Chris Have a good weekend.

That pump is goosed. If you phone me next week I have some news for you.

Its nowhere near as bad as i would expect it to be considering the amount of oil it must have been leaking to behind the oil seal, and the fact that the drain hole was already enlarged.

Some better pics of my pump.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pb74991c1c91a6dab43c7a5ceaad5a5ae/e91f9fd7.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pc4d4d112d40ae437d063ff36f21c64cb/e91f9fda.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p01eefd4285dcbc7adabb4ccf83adf820/e91f9fdd.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/p12427d9c9ab2bcf222217bbd39f6341b/e91f9fd8.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid225/pd61a25f77abea01d0c719f2bba3fca4c/e91f9d8f.jpg

Tricky: Has your engine ever "lost" the second turbo, had an I/C pipe come off, been fitted with different injectors or a single turbo?

It was imported with just exhaust and filter, but after decat, second turbo was not coming in, changed both turbos and found for some reason that i could not find, that the second turbo was not turning/jammed, but when it was removed, and i dismantled it and found no reason, no contamination, no knacked bearings etc, and on reassembly it was fine, not used it since, as i changed for another pair, never blown an IC pipe, and injectors are std, as i think i said before it has had the sump off and oil pump before as the drain has been opened up, which leads me to think it has suffered the blowing seal problem before, but i don't think the pump was examined, as it has definatly had some kind of contamination which has affected the bearing area around the front of the inner rotor.Why do you ask? wheres your train of thought going now Chris?

Oil/Fuel dillution possibly?

It certainly looks like something has been through there, judging by the circumferential marking - or its had some lubrication issues at some point. It certainly looks very worn at any rate.

The rotor face is very marked, and the iner rotor spigot into the housing just behind the seal has some deep circumferential grooves in it, so not only has something been leaking out of there, its also possibly been carrying debris into the clearance. It could be damage from metal to metal contact between the rotor and housing but it looks more to me like something has got in there and been dragged around.

Oddly the aliminium houisng doesn't look nearly as badly marked on the rotor faces, but again the spigot area is fooked. There's a lot of what could be debris embedded in the surface, or it could be micro-porosity in the casting.

The thing that intrigues me the most is the amount or radial marks on the backplate, unless this is just muck that got on there when it was dissassembled.

Oil/Fuel dillution possibly?

 

It certainly looks like something has been through there, judging by the circumferential marking - or its had some lubrication issues at some point. It certainly looks very worn at any rate.

 

The rotor face is very marked, and the inner rotor spigot into the housing just behind the seal has some deep circumferential grooves in it, so not only has something been leaking out of there, its also possibly been carrying debris into the clearance. It could be damage from metal to metal contact between the rotor and housing but it looks more to me like something has got in there and been dragged around.

 

Oddly the aliminium houisng doesn't look nearly as badly marked on the rotor faces, but again the spigot area is fooked. There's a lot of what could be debris embedded in the surface, or it could be micro-porosity in the casting.

 

The thing that intrigues me the most is the amount or radial marks on the backplate, unless this is just muck that got on there when it was dissassembled.

Yeah this has me puzzled to, but it is often the case that the harder metal will take the most wear/damage, like you say the driven rotor front trust face looks like something has really grooved it, yet the alloy thrust face has very few marks,

As for the rear there are some very small radial marks but the main worn area is almost like the rotor has been either running slightly out of true or some sort of induced vibration, as the wear marks are deeper at the very edge where the teeth touch.

Has anyone had a seal failure on a *STOCK* VVTi?

Looks to me like it has had some sort of contamination.. i guess fuel? too much of it?

I just thought I'd post about my misfortune. Sept 06 both turbos stopped working due to what I believe was an oil problem. the garage put too thick an oil in during a service and the turbo oil seals blew. I didn't notice any crank seal failure at this time but tbh I didn't look. At the time the car was with jap spec tubs, 1.2bar, fmic, 1st decat.

I then decided to go single and have spent the best part of a year trying to get the car sorted. I got it on the road about april with a phr street kit and obvious oil change. I soon discovered the front crank seal had gone. At this time the car was 0.35 bar and I had only done about 30 miles of driving.

I then had the crank seal changed and another oil change. Initially it was fine and I have driven it for about 200 miles at 0.35 bar with no problems.

been out to the car today and noticed oil round the same area. completely gutted because I've basically run out of money. I would like to get the problem fixed but I really don't want it to happen again. I'll obviously be looking to change the oil pump now but i'd like to know what I can do to help stop the problem happening again.

Rich, see here http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=114270

I just thought I'd post about my misfortune. Sept 06 both turbos stopped working due to what I believe was an oil problem. the garage put too thick an oil in during a service and the turbo oil seals blew. I didn't notice any crank seal failure at this time but tbh I didn't look. At the time the car was with jap spec tubs, 1.2bar, fmic, 1st decat.

I then decided to go single and have spent the best part of a year trying to get the car sorted. I got it on the road about april with a phr street kit and obvious oil change. I soon discovered the front crank seal had gone. At this time the car was 0.35 bar and I had only done about 30 miles of driving.

I then had the crank seal changed and another oil change. Initially it was fine and I have driven it for about 200 miles at 0.35 bar with no problems.

been out to the car today and noticed oil round the same area. completely gutted because I've basically run out of money. I would like to get the problem fixed but I really don't want it to happen again. I'll obviously be looking to change the oil pump now but i'd like to know what I can do to help stop the problem happening again.

Thick oil will not blow the turbo oil seals. Did the car run for any length of time with the turbos malfunctioning, say on just one turbo?

The answer to your problems is a new oil pump and a proper mapping session. I don't map AEM, nor do I know anyone personally who can, sorry.

Thick oil will not blow the turbo oil seals. Did the car run for any length of time with the turbos malfunctioning, say on just one turbo?

 

The answer to your problems is a new oil pump and a proper mapping session. I don't map AEM, nor do I know anyone personally who can, sorry.

ok thanks for the info. the car didn't run with 2nd turbo problems though, both didn't work at the same time, there was oil everywhere and it could barely idle. Both turbo were fully intact but i haven't investigated anymore than that so far.

the car was running a bit rich before, not sure how much this was than any other supra though,

if yr oil pressure is within 25psi (idle) to max 70 psi u wont blow any seals ..thats the simple rule. so keep an eye on the oil press gauge....if it goes above 75psi it will take out one of the 4 seals of the motor...( most likely the crank seal)..

can be solved by boring out the reture hole in the oil pump which regulates the oil pressure.

if yr oil pressure is within 25psi (idle) to max 70 psi u wont blow any seals ..thats the simple rule. so keep an eye on the oil press gauge....if it goes above 75psi it will take out one of the 4 seals of the motor...( most likely the crank seal)..

 

can be solved by boring out the reture hole in the oil pump which regulates the oil pressure.

Total and utter twaddle.

if yr oil pressure is within 25psi (idle) to max 70 psi u wont blow any seals ..thats the simple rule. so keep an eye on the oil press gauge....if it goes above 75psi it will take out one of the 4 seals of the motor...( most likely the crank seal)..

 

can be solved by boring out the reture hole in the oil pump which regulates the oil pressure.

Mate, my oil pressure is over 100psi at start-up and anything over 3,000rpm. No seals gone yet. I suspect all other members see similar pressures.

Can you justify your statement?

Total and utter twaddle.

I concur! if you bother to read the rest of this thread you will discover just what causes front main seal failure.

ive read though most of these similar topic, but i can find a solution,

my name is donny, im from south africa, city called durban

Ive been battling for about a year now with the seals poping

Ive put on a brand new pump,and new seal all from toyota

we unfortuanatly dont get supras here, so we buy the engines from importers

the engines in really good condition, oil is clean,

im running a single turbo t72, with completly stock engine

0.8 bar boost

so anyway after a band new pump and seal, it still leaks

what did you do to solve it, some off you had battled for a while, wat have you done, beside new pump and seal

please send me an email

[email protected]

thank you,,, please help me

Have you had the crank out? I'd like detailed, as in pro quality, photos of where the oil seal sits on the crank nose, it could have a bad wear ridge, but that's probably not possible now. I need to KNOW if the engine is breathing heavily under duress. To do this it needs to be on a rolling road with the stock breather set up removed and just the hose from the cam cover with the PCV valve removed and the normal breather pipes venting to atmosphere. Then you can see if it's piston blow by, or even measure crankcase pressure off the dipstick tube. With a brand new pump and seal **correctly fitted ** it will be either crank nose wear (a new or known perfect used crank is the fix) or piston blow by due to wear in bores, pistons or rings, or all three. Finally, what's the oil pressure, hot, at say 5500 RPM? You will need to fit a proper mechanical oil pressure gauge to get a trustworthy reading. Anything less than the above is pure conjecture.

ive read though most of these similar topic, but i can find a solution,

 

my name is donny, im from south africa, city called durban

Ive been battling for about a year now with the seals poping

 

Ive put on a brand new pump,and new seal all from toyota

we unfortuanatly dont get supras here, so we buy the engines from importers

 

the engines in really good condition, oil is clean,

im running a single turbo t72, with completly stock engine

0.8 bar boost

 

so anyway after a band new pump and seal, it still leaks

 

what did you do to solve it, some off you had battled for a while, wat have you done, beside new pump and seal

 

please send me an email

 

[email protected]

 

thank you,,, please help me

I would be looking at the condition of the surface that the seal mates with on the crankshaft first, then at possible sub standard seal, or wrongly fitted, however i think the engine would have to have VERY serious bore/ring wear in order to pressurise the FMS enough to maker it fail, as the transfer aperture is very small as std.

thanks guys

okay firstly the guy that buildt my setup for me, is one of the few guys in SA who buildt a 1000hp supra, very few maybe the first, he had the same problem after the build the seal popped, he then after reserch found the oil pump mod which he did and he also made a polyurethane insert to fit into the seal and keep the spring in place, it has worked for him the car makes insane power and runs no problems

when he got mine running which is actually nissan s13 200sx CA18det more familiar as 180sx and 240sx body shape, so it has a transplant

the 2jz i have is originally a auto version , had no fly wheel, i then had one cutom made

the sump was very clean, oil looked good and no sludge in the sump, old oil pump also had no ware

the crank nose didnt show any signs of ware, the seal fitted on tightly and looked quite firm

i installed a 25 row oil cooler

compression was as factory on all cylinders

oil pressure on cold start is 40psi once warmed drops to 35psi

on 5500 rpm im not sure as i havent checked

please see the link below to see what oil pump mod looks like

http://tobykurien.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3888

what else can i tell you, should i just buy another engine, but i fear it may still happen

thanks guys

 

okay firstly the guy that buildt my setup for me, is one of the few guys in SA who buildt a 1000hp supra, very few maybe the first, he had the same problem after the build the seal popped, he then after reserch found the oil pump mod which he did and he also made a polyurethane insert to fit into the seal and keep the spring in place, it has worked for him the car makes insane power and runs no problems

when he got mine running which is actually nissan s13 200sx CA18det more familiar as 180sx and 240sx body shape, so it has a transplant

 

the 2jz i have is originally a auto version , had no fly wheel, i then had one cutom made

the sump was very clean, oil looked good and no sludge in the sump, old oil pump also had no ware

the crank nose didnt show any signs of ware, the seal fitted on tightly and looked quite firm

 

i installed a 25 row oil cooler

 

compression was as factory on all cylinders

 

oil pressure on cold start is 40psi once warmed drops to 35psi

 

on 5500 rpm im not sure as i havent checked

please see the link below to see what oil pump mod looks like

 

http://tobykurien.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3888

 

what else can i tell you, should i just buy another engine, but i fear it may still happen

Interesting, but personally i can't see how the insert will stop the spring being displaced, what holds the insert against the seal? as all that holds the seal is the outside surface, the insert would have to be an interference fit on just the edge, and then there is no guarantee that it will locate correctly, and so would in effect be floating.

The reason the seal spring (jumps off) is because the seal lips are pushed out by the excess pressure, and if the insert is floating i can't see this preventing it.

As you have read mine failed three times before i cured it by fitting a new pump, and as long as the seal is fitted correctly and the pump clearances are as factory, then i fail to see why it should leak, however you do mention you have a custom sump, so i presume you have checked to make sure you are not obscuring the drain hole with this?

My seal popped out for the first time, i then read all of this and thought id try a new seal unfortunatly it only lasted 50 miles and was pushed out again.

Since then i ordered a new pump and seal and replaced the lot, everthing seemed fine for about 100 miles and i noticed oil was leaking from the little drain hole in the plastic cover.

Once i removed all the covers i realised the oil was NOT coming from the fms but the cam seals and was leaking down the front of the engine and coming out from the drain hole, making it look like front seal was weaping.

Since fitting new cam seals im oil leak free so make sure your cam seals are good.