AEM v E-manage

I have been looking closely at the AEM and greddy E-manage engine management systems and am now even more confused than when I started. Without letting this thread turn into slanging match or a "mines bigger than yours" argument, could someone please answer a few questions. Oh, BTW, please remember that if you treat me like a technical idiot, I wont dissapoint you

1. I understand that the e-manage is a piggy back system and the AEM a standalone unit but what are the releative merits of one type over the other?

2. I have read many good reports on the Supraforum BBS regarding both but they invariably use them on the US / UK spec cars. Is there anything to be wary of if using either system with a J-spec?

3. My car is an automatic. I have heard horror stories (mainly from people who have no first hand experience) of the AEM system messing up auto boxes. Is this fact or fable? Would the fact that I am fitting a BL upgraded box alleviate the problems (if they do exist)?

4. I undersdtand Usman A flew in the chap from the USA to map their car. Was that because there is a lack of expertise in this country? If that is not the case, who else (other than Pete at Thor) is advertising their sevices to map the AEM?

I am not sure if it is relevant to your answers but here is a rough spec of my car:

•T67 P trim single turbo

•HKS 256 inlet and 264 exhaust cams

•HKS cam gears

Twin walbro fuel pumps

•Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator

•720cc Siemens injectors

•PHR Fuel rail

•Blitz LM FMIC

I think that should be enough to go on with eh?

Off topic mate and no use to your questions but we missed your big orange presence at Pod mate.

I couldnt make it Justin. I was at a conference the night before and it was a very late finish!

Well I'm no great expert on this, but it's a cost-benefit thing really. By the time you've bought all the bits you need for an AEM it'll probably cost what, £1400 or so? Plus it's gonna cost you more in mapping time. Whereas an Emanage setup would be more like £400. The AEM is more flexible and can do extra stuff, but is it worth the extra? In either case you'd probably want a boost controller, if you go the Emanage route you might as well make it the Profec E01 and that would allow you to fiddle with the Emanage in the car and view stuff in real-time.

Here's some advantages and disadvantages for a starter, I'm sure someone with some more knowledge of stand-alones can add to these:

Stand-alone

Advantages

Complete control over maps means you know exactly what it is going to do at any point.

More flexible. You can get it to do stuff like anti-lag and change maps depending on the state of various sensors.

It plugs straight in (I think) so you don't have to wire it into the loom.

Disadvantages

Significantly more expensive.

You have to set up your maps from scratch, which is going to take much longer (and hence be more expensive).

Emanage

Advantages

Quite a bit cheaper.

Uses the ECU base maps, so you don't have to worry about cold-start and idle maps etc. That means less mapping time.

If you have the Profec E01 you can use it to display and monitor things in real time.

Disadvantages

Bit of a pain to wire in (not so bad using a Fields harness)

You know what modification you are making to the base map, but you don't always know exactly what the ECU base map is doing. E.g. with ignition timing you can modify the standard timing, but you can't see what the actual value is, just your modification to it.

Thansk for the post Simon - very interesting and informative.

Any one else have any views / opinions?

Originally posted by SimonB

Significantly more expensive.

You have to set up your maps from scratch, which is going to take much longer (and hence be more expensive).

 

The AEM does have basemaps which can be downloaded off the internet/copied and pasted between users.

I'm obviously going to give a biased opinion here, but I'll try to be objective....

Basically it has all the functionality of the stock ecu, and any piggy back plus more. The ONLY 2 downsides as I can see it is that it obviously costs more than a piggyback, and that there is only 1 authorised tuner in the country.

If you're going to leace the car in it's current state, and not modify it any further, then maybe the e-manage is the right choice, as it can be set up fairly cheaply, and then it can just be left alone. If you want to "future proof" then the only option IMHO is the AEM or any other standalone for that matter.

If your up for a few bevvies this week Colin, I'd be more than happy to give you a demonstration of what the aem can do.

Hope that helps a little,

Tony

Sounds good to me tony. I should be available either Wednesday or Thursday.

Dont forget the E manage will let the ECU control knock using the stock knock sensors and also wont blow the autobox to pieces , cold start will stay the same , there are cars in the states running 9's on a SAFC 1 , how much faster would they be on a standalone ?????

Dude:flame Dev

dude

It is not always about speed but more about safety. There may be cars running 9 sec with just the SAFC but how many engines have they blown up whilst getting there?

I am still not too sure about the argument of blown auto boxes. Every post I have recently read on Supraforums suggest that this is an old problem now sorted out. Of course, if it isnt mapped properly in the first place using the latest information, then there are going to be problems eh?

Originally posted by CJ

dude

 

It is not always about speed but more about safety. There may be cars running 9 sec with just the SAFC but how many engines have they blown up whilst getting there?

 

I am still not too sure about the argument of blown auto boxes. Every post I have recently read on Supraforums suggest that this is an old problem now sorted out. Of course, if it isnt mapped properly in the first place using the latest information, then there are going to be problems eh?

Agreed but the ONLY standalone i would even consider fitting is an Autronic , if the AEM has only one official fitter/dealer in the UK you are then at their mercy re warranty (none from what i can make out ) and pricing , if i were going standalone it would be Autronic as Terry can sort out a lot of problems , the E-Manage has enough adjustment points to be safe but is simple enough to be user adjustable , i do not know of ! single person in the UK using an AEM at anything other than moderate road use and even then its taken many hours of their own time and then even more hours on the dyno just to run very low boost , sorry i havent got 6 months to map a car so i can run over 2 bar !!!, none of my probs really point at the SAFC more access boost on road fuel causing DET and break up of iridium plugs , on the other hand an AEM was defo responsible for totaling FisherJohns motor and he had no OD for about 4 months !!! Nice going , if i were in the states where theyve been using this for years not weeks it might be different but not here not now

Dude:flame Dev

And who do you know that is successfully running the e-manage with a single conversion and high boost at the moment?

I'd go E-Manage too. In fact I did

Airflow mapping is cheaper hardware wise but it can be frustrating to map, as you are working around an unknown stock map. This stock map does fruity things around 2500 to 4000rpm because of the sequential system, and below 3500 it can run lean with a good single turbo on as it's flowing waaay more air than the dinky first turbo ever could. There are a few other tricky aspects I've found out that I won't go into here, and they took some headpain to figure out - but the one advantage is that now I've sorted mine, doing another Supra would be easy for me Especially yours CJ, it's very similar spec lol

-Ian

Originally posted by CJ

And who do you know that is successfully running the e-manage with a single conversion and high boost at the moment?

I've mapped to 1.2bar of boost. I didn't want to go higher as I haven't got an EGT sensor in place yet and no way of checking the ignition timing/det. However, that's just 'environmental' concerns. *mapping* it doesn't worry me at all once I've got everything in place to be able to safely do it.

AFRs are 13.8ish for low load (around 0.2bar) moving to 11.4 to 11.8 at 0.9bar boost, around 10.8's for 1.2 (extra fuel for cooling effect, a la stock) and stoich at cruise.

-Ian

Thanks Ian - good info.

As I said in the begining, mine was more a question of what each was capable of rather than an invitation to slag off one or t'other.

I may contact you shortly to have a chat about the mapping you have done to date and any problems you may have encountered and how you got over them.

Anytime

-Ian

Dude, I know that the Vortex lot, are Autronic pro.

But in the AEM's defence, it all depends on who is tuning it, now Justin came here, and it took the guy 1 HOUR to road map it, and it drove superbly to the dyno, and on the dyno it produced 380rhhp first time, now, we had a few runs, and in no time we were pulling big hp.

And before anyone says, our blowup wasent todo with the AEM at all, it was just 2.1 bar on stock engine(I know, were nutters)

Now, for a fact, I asked Justin about the Autobox, and that we have a big paranoia regarding the AEM, he said that its no problem doing autos.(from someone who has done 300+ supras)

CJ, it is true, the AEM here needs an authorised and reliable tuner,(I think THOR now are) but Ive been thinking and reading the US boards for a while too, therfore I see no problem as to why it cant be used here, I mean come one guys Supra tuning is US based, thye have plenty of success with AEM, its not like theyre on another planet. Thus why I had justin come over.

John, re, fisherjohns car, I heard that suprastore sent him a wrong map, thus blowing his motor/box, NOT AEM fault.(stand to be corrected)

The autronic is good stuff from what I hear.

CJ, it all depends on what your going todo,but seeing as your single I would go standalone, I know the piggyback lads will jump me for this, but pushing over 500hp should be real time/ clear as crystal tuning, you see what the car is doing, full stop.

But then again, you can see that dude has ran a good time on SAFC, Im not saying that AEM he would have been faster. But you get my point.

ps, CJ, why dont you try THOR? darrens car just made 779 rhhp on AEM ... .. and they done a pukka job from what I hear.

Are there ANY auto's in the UK running an AEM yet? ('running', meaning 'Still working'?)

And no, I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious as I've also heard all the horror stories about AEM killing autos...

Usmann, I wouldn't say the Vortex lot are stricktly Autronic pro, seeing as none of us have got one! Obviously Terry had one and it worked very well for him.

I have no doubt that a standalone is the BEST way to go, but not necessarily the best VFM or simplest route... Hence my car runs E-manage.... At the moment...

And thats what worries me too Matt. It's the lack of experience with the AEM that puts me off.

In saying that, there does seem to be a distinct lack of experience with most stand alones when it comes to Supra's. As you rightly stated, Terry had good results with his Autronic but is theer anyone else who has had expereince with them as an owner, or more importantly, a mapper?

Originally posted by CJ

And thats what worries me too Matt. It's the lack of experience with the AEM that puts me off.

 

In saying that, there does seem to be a distinct lack of experience with most stand alones when it comes to Supra's. As you rightly stated, Terry had good results with his Autronic but is theer anyone else who has had expereince with them as an owner, or more importantly, a mapper?

Very very difficult one IMHO - have spent a lot of time reading the US forums - and they seem divided too

Mainly by the VFM aspect

There does seem mention however of the E-manage not managing the high powered stuff well

Now why this should be so...I dont know...but again the timing management must be the key here

...and really the place that the stand alone must win surely?

The timing factor cannot be as accurate as the AEM (and also as critical in larger HP requirements??)

My gut feel is that the E-manage will take you up to a reasonable level - and from there the AEM (aka Autronic etc) must take over

What that level is - I dont know - but if there is only Ian's running well (after much faffing around too!) with the Greddy then I would say that at the moment the jury is still out?

Come on Matt - pull ya finger out and get one going!!

I reckon the E-Manage is fine for the Boostlogic T67 level of power, and that's madness on the street. How much more do you want

For a given setup, I reckon a standalone will get a better power curve across the rev range, but only a minor one and for £££ of mapping time. If you are really pushing the boat out, as Paul says, you need mega tight control of all the variables. I'm not saying an E-Manage *can't*, it's an unknown, but I'm sure a standalone *can*. But it's an order of magnitude more expensive.

But like I said, a *streetable* T67 setup is perfectly do-able with the E-manage.

-Ian

Yes - but you see CJ has had problems with it (e-manage) and HIS mapping on a T67

I know for a fact he doesn't have your expertise Ian (whether he has the expertise of a gerbil is also debatable - but thats for another thread!)

So rather than keep going down the present uncertain route that is E-manage - then why not take the plunge of AEM?

OK - $60,000 question

If they cost the same - which one would YOU go for??

Cost the same, was as easy to fit, and I had a base map that was reliable - the AEM. Way more to tinker with and actually probably easier to map yes, because it would be more logical - you plug in a duty cycle rather than try to change an existing one.

But until you do the mother of all group buys...

As for uncertainty I'd rather have a T67 + E-Manage than a T67 + AEM right now as I've got a map for the E-Manage that works. If CJ wants me to look at his setup and his map, I will

-Ian

Originally posted by Ian C

But until you do the mother of all group buys...

 

Mmm...funny you should say that...watch this space

Originally posted by Paul E

What that level is - I dont know - but if there is only Ian's running well (after much faffing around too!) with the Greddy then I would say that at the moment the jury is still out?

 

 

Come on Matt - pull ya finger out and get one going!!

Eh? - Are you saying the E-manage killed my clutch? - Other than that, I don't remember having any problems with the E-manage.

Yes, Ian did have troubles, but remember, Ian and I were one of the first, (that I'd heard of at the time), in the country to successfully run the E-manage on the Supra, And CJ's has only a minor glitch with his...(and I think that's just a slight mapping error). Not quite the same as destroying gearboxes and having running problems...

I like my E-manage

Originally posted by Matt Harwood

Eh? - Are you saying the E-manage killed my clutch? - Other than that, I don't remember having any problems with the E-manage.

Of course not - it's that right foot of yours...

Oh...and a few horsepower...!

It's a quandry isn't it?