On a single .. SAFC & EM Experience

I would not use a SAFC2 on anything bigger than 650cc

why is that?

the largest injectors we've use them on were 720cc over 1 year with no issues, that was also with the monster hks t51r turbo kit on our own car.

a/f ratios were constant through the rpm range with the safc2

we have used this setup on a couple of single turbo supras and have ran fine. in most cases within 12 months they come back and go for an ems due to more tunabilty.

i'd rate it 100% if done correctly.

if you have extra moneys then stand alone managent is the better choice obviously.

main thing it boils down to is how its tuned.

bijal

I must admit, I found setting the SAFC-2 up for 1 bar was tricky enough on 550's.

I can't imagine what going past 650's would be like. You'd run out of RPM points .. and the car would be only driveable for WOT runs at max boost. Is that right ?

What about daily driving - where boost varies .. sometimes your on 0.3 bar .. other times you might be on 0.6 etc ?

Wouldn't that mean - you're running VERY rich for daily driving - but good AFRs on WOT ?

I must admit, I found setting the SAFC-2 up for 1 bar was tricky enough on 550's.

 

I can't imagine what going past 650's would be like. You'd run out of RPM points .. and the car would be only driveable for WOT runs ?? Is that right ?

yes it is tricky to setup, i admit that. but i keep saying, its how you do it and who does it. it can be time consuming if you dont know how to or havent got enough experice with them.

but for someone who does, often its not that hard.

bijal

Tuning an F-Con will cost £600.00 approx

Tuning an S-AFC2 and ITC I would have thought not a great deal away from that with dyno time / tuning etc

The F-Con adding more capability and finer tuning?

Well done on getting that set up well Bijal - most agree that the 650's are at the max capability of the S-AFC

I must admit, I found setting the SAFC-2 up for 1 bar was tricky enough on 550's.

 

I can't imagine what going past 650's would be like. You'd run out of RPM points .. and the car would be only driveable for WOT runs at max boost. Is that right ?

 

What about daily driving - where boost varies .. sometimes your on 0.3 bar .. other times you might be on 0.6 etc ?

 

Wouldn't that mean - you're running VERY rich for daily driving - but good AFRs on WOT ?

sorry, you just edited, so i'll add my reply further to your last question..

yes boost varys on daily driving and around town and even on the motorway. thats where an experience tuner has his or her responsibilty to work on that.

now remember, the safc 2 has hi and low throttle thresh hold. the safc2 can be setup so that YOU (the user or mapper) tell it exactly when you would say you are in High throttle or low throttle speeds. on the safc2 mapping options you can shift that point higher or lower.

so for example...

if you setup the unit to say....have 30% low throttle and 50% high throttle, this means when the safc 2 see's only 30% of throttle it will run the low map and when it see 50% of throttle it will shift the map to hi throttle. this can be changed to 20% low and 80% hi or 60% low and 40% hi etc etc etc.

the setup of which percentage on throttle you set it as also has to reflect apon a mapper's judgment to how the owner might drive their car and there for setup this area to corispond to the entire low and hi maps within the safc2.

another easier way to do this is...dont forget both low and hi throttle maps have like 800rpm range all the way to 7600rpm, so to have it at 10% low and say 20% hi. this way when your pulling off and driving within daily "normal" speeds you might be within 10% low throttle. and after 20% hi of throttle the entire map moves over to RPM range of hi thottle, this can make your car run well because your not having to worry about too much mapping on low and hi throttle. you are utilising say 80% of the entire hi map to sort out your ENTIRE driving map. this obviosuly will vary from car to car dependent on the mods etc.

and this is the crucial area that needs to be mapped. i have seen some people set this area up VERY poorly and thus having poor fueling on daily driving.

only an expericed mapper knows how to set this area up and it must be done on the dyno then tested on the road..

bijal

Just for own self-competence ...

On my previous setup - I had:

throttle position set to 32%

1 Bar of boost, 36psi fuel pressure.

But I found it tricky to

a) Ensure that it was running good AFRs for WOT

b) Ensure that it was running rich-safe AFRs for daily-driving .. whilst either on +ve boost ... like 0.3 or 0.6 bar etc.

Now, to do a) & b) - I had to richen the lower & mid point RPM range .. as much as possible. This meant (from memory) my AFRs would be about

• 13's between 2400 & 3100 - for +ve boost - for closed loop it was 14's - 15's.
  

Then after 3100 to 3700 .. the afrs were mid 12's. - for +ve boost like 0.6 bar. But it wasn't after 4000k .. when the afrs richen up ... to 11.xyz (can't remmeber).

But that meant if I was on 0.1 or 0.3 boost with same throttle % ... I'd be overfuelling. There were afew lean spots & rich spots around .. because of the 12points.

If I was to set that again - what would've been good to do differently ?

Tuning an F-Con will cost £600.00 approx

 

Tuning an S-AFC2 and ITC I would have thought not a great deal away from that with dyno time / tuning etc

 

The F-Con adding more capability and finer tuning?

 

Well done on getting that set up well Bijal - most agree that the 650's are at the max capability of the S-AFC

my correction there, sorry. 650 on safc would be limit. but with an safc2 i would say 750cc.

bijal

Ah thanks for that!

 

only an expericed mapper knows how to set this area up and it must be done on the dyno then tested on the road..

 

bijal

Quite true ... my setup competence on the S-AFC2 - I'd describe as novice. I know enough to get me by.

Just for own self-competence ...

 

On my previous setup - I had:

 

throttle position set to 32%

1 Bar of boost, 36psi fuel pressure.

 

But I found it tricky to

 

a) Ensure that it was running good AFRs for WOT

b) Ensure that it was running rich-safe AFRs for daily-driving .. whilst either on +ve boost ... like 0.3 or 0.6 bar etc.

 

 

Now, to do a) & b) - I had to richen the lower & mid point RPM range .. as much as possible. This meant (from memory) my AFRs would be about

 

• 13's between 2400 & 3100 - for +ve boost - for closed loop it was 14's - 15's.
  

 

Then after 3100 to 3700 .. the afrs were mid 12's. - for +ve boost like 0.6 bar. But it wasn't after 4000k .. when the afrs richen up ... to 11.xyz (can't remmeber).

 

But that meant if I was on 0.1 or 0.3 boost with same throttle % ... I'd be overfuelling. There were afew lean spots & rich spots around .. because of the 12points.

 

If I was to set that again - what would've been good to do differently ?

ok. what you did was good thinking can you remember what the hi throttle was set at mate?

bijal

Ah thanks for that!

 

 

 

Quite true ... my setup competence on the S-AFC2 - I'd describe as novice. I know enough to get me by.

that might have come accross rude, appolgies. i dont mean it that way and no offence to your personal experience. clearly you know a lot on this subject.

its good to discuss this in depth so that others can read and help themselves if they get stuck as well as spreading the knowledge.

bijal

I think off-hand it was mid 50's. I can't remember the exact figure. I do remember experiementing a range between 55's - 65's.

And I do remember it ran abit lean on 65's.

Ah no bother - no offense taken.

clearly you know a lot on this subject.

- I'm probably the most least techie! All, I've done is ask alot of irritating questions & done alot reading.

its good to discuss this in depth so that others can read and help themselves if they get stuck as well as spreading the knowledge.

For sure, it's always good to learn about your car. I think so anyway.

Ah no bother - no offense taken.

 

 

 

- I'm probably the most least techie! All, I've done is ask alot of irritating questions & done alot reading.

questions are good, only way 1 can learn, at the same token the person giving advice needs to be willing.

bijal

Just to add .. I richened the RPM range - by trimming fuel not adding. I think - I remember 1 point trimming -9% fuel.

I think off-hand it was mid 50's. I can't remember the exact figure. I do remember experiementing a range between 55's - 65's.

 

And I do remember it ran abit lean on 65's.

ok here is a good one for ya. this is from my experience doing a lot of road and circuit racing tuning.

you want to be finding the right balance on your car. this means plenty of part throttle 1000-7000rpm runs on long straights (keeping the map rich) on bends and even maybe in the wet.

once you find WHAT percentage throttle is most common in those situations without losing the tail or wheel spinning of the car you have already setup the low throttle range there. for example, say from a lot of experimenting with the above PART THROTTLE racing through the entire RPM range you found that your part throttle range is mostly suited to between 22% and 35% you would try and keep it at say 30% to start with. you would then map the entire rpm range at only 30% of throttle and the higher rpm you get to the more fuel you add or subtract to reach your target A/F ratios. dont forget, you dont need to worry about boost levels on part throttle too much because you wont reach full boost even at 7k rpm because your on part throttle tuning still.

then you do the Wide open throttle pulls (again, keeping to the rich side for now) and fine tune that the same way you did with the part throttle method of mapping the safc2 and find your happy point which you might call say 70% throttle and above is your full throttle most of the time.

in most cases its best to keep the low throttle percentage to the lowest allowed and sort that area out and the hi throttle ALSO to a reasonable lowest possible throttle range. this way you are realy only working on idle area (low throttle) and the rest of the rpm would be for hi throttle (which you would map for low rpm fueling AND hi rpm fueling). almost like saying you want to completly delete the low throttle map so all your doing is mapping the entire rpm range of high throttle to the a/f ratio you aim for. then when you get to full open throttle pulls and higher boost you just tune those areas accordingly.

its VERY hard to explain this on here, its best to show it face to face. plus i am not so good with technical talk in depth on the forum over the phone or face to face is much better

bijal

Just to add .. I richened the RPM range - by trimming fuel not adding. I think - I remember 1 point trimming -9% fuel.

yes, this is obvious and more obvious trimming on larger injectors.

but i am trying to point out methods of ways of tuning the safc2 to suit your driving style if its not given to a mapper.

good thing for the end user is that there is no need to worry about timing maps withthe safc2 becasue the stock ecu is clever enough to do this for ya

where as on an e-manage or stand alone ems you'd need det cans, addtional external equipment to map the car on fuel and ignition etc. either way, its very good learning for anyone interested in this field.

bijal

Ah .. thanks for that - interesting read. Perhaps a mistake I made was - not increasing my fuel pressure abit from stock. That way - it would've given me abit more duty cycle to play with.

Making the trimming easier - I mean.

its VERY hard to explain this on here, its best to show it face to face. plus i am not so good with technical talk in depth on the forum over the phone or face to face is much better

 

bijal

Ah .. thanks for that - interesting read. Perhaps a mistake I made was - not increasing my fuel pressure abit from stock. That way - it would've given me abit more duty cycle to play with.

 

Making the trimming easier - I mean.

correct spot on mate. however, if you DID increase the fuel pressure then you would need to do more trimming. but that would depend on what rpm range and what ammount of boost you are aiming for.

bijal

Ah .. thanks for that - interesting read. Perhaps a mistake I made was - not increasing my fuel pressure abit from stock. That way - it would've given me abit more duty cycle to play with.

 

Making the trimming easier - I mean.

regardless of my right up, i think your intensions and starting this experimental thread is excellent and many people can learn a lot from it.

well done to you

bijal

you would need to do more trimming. but that would depend on what rpm range and what ammount of boost you are aiming for.

 

bijal

For sure! It was after - that I set the SAFC-2 up for 36psi FP & 1 bar boost .. that I understood increasing the FP - increases your duty cycle - so you can be more accurate on the fuel trimming. edited - and understood duty cycle stuff

And after all that setup @ 36psi .. I couldn't be arsed to do it again for 40psi!

Tuning an F-Con will cost £600.00 approx

Tuning an S-AFC2 and ITC I would have thought not a great deal away from that with dyno time / tuning etc

Like how much ?

I wouldn't expect to pay no more than £200. The reason is - that the SAFC-2 is pretty easy to understand.

It's not as complicated as the EM, EMU etc. All it would get used for would be adjusting the voltage .. for trimming fuel in % across user-defined RPM points.

The S-iTC .. you'd use some det can's and then twiddle 4 or 5 push-out knobs .. ... which correspond to RPM points .. when the engine is under load.

And the 4 or 5 push-in / push-out twiddly knobs light up corresponding to RPM too ... so you get the Knight Industries Two-Thousand head lamp .. on your dash! eh ? haha !

Tuning an F-Con will cost £600.00 approx

 

Tuning an S-AFC2 and ITC I would have thought not a great deal away from that with dyno time / tuning etc

The work needed isn't worth that.

This is a real interesting read guys, alot of it's gone over my head, but i'm picking up little bits, (not that i'll be experimenting myself ). I like reading this sorta thread.

This is a real interesting read guys, alot of it's gone over my head, but i'm picking up little bits, (not that i'll be experimenting myself ). I like reading this sorta thread.

if you like this sort of thread then wait toward this weekend.

i'll be posting our newest project with pics and complete tuning tips and how toos etc for the forum board to see.

Ah good stuff!

i'll be posting our newest project with pics and complete tuning tips and how toos etc for the forum board to see.