It's all very well using a cheap oil but.......

Cheaper oils are in the long run a false economy, In the first mile the higher volatility, inferior anti-wear performance and poor temperature resistance of a cheap grade of oil will start to show. Obviously, there will be no immediate effects.

The whole point of top quality oil is long-term performance retention, which is particularly valuable to people who actually own the car they drive. The ‘performance’ enthusiast will want to retain the new-spec BHP figures, and the cost-conscious will want to see good fuel economy with 100,000 on the clock.

Cheap oil, (particularly 10W/40 or thinner) evaporates quickly, and the vapour is drawn into the combustion chambers via the crankcase ventilation system. This means calcium and zinc oxide deposits (from oil additives) which will cause pre-ignition, so the knock sensor retards the ignition, giving less power and poor fuel economy. The deposits also contaminate the exhaust catalyst, leading to high emissions and MOT failure. How much does an average catalyst box cost these days?!

In most cases synthetic oils (proper ones that is) are the way to go if you intend to keep the car or the car is somewhat special or used hard.

Cheers

Simon

your right..... i'm off to halfords to get some quality oil.

your right..... i'm off to halfords to get some quality oil.

Ring Opie Oils. Super fast next day delivery

I still don't understand this Xw-Y lark. I have some 5w-50 Valvoline here. I was about to look at buying some oil to to do an oil change and I noticed I still have 11L of this stuff left.

It came quite highly recommended on here, but I don't understand. The 5w-50 seems like quite a wide range of viscosity but I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.

It's "Valvoline VR1 Racing Full Synthetic SAE 5W-50". There doesn't seem to be any industry standards printed on the packaging, but then I suspect it might be 'not for road use' or somesuch?

Any thoughts Simon?

*drinks 20L of Costco Chevron fully synth in a mad panic*

It is a wide viscosity range, it should have API or ACEA ratings on the can.

What all this Xw-XX means is as follows:

If you see an expression such as 10W-40, the oil is a multigrade.

This simply means that the oil falls into 2 viscosity grades, in this case 10W & sae 40.

This is made possible by the inclusion of a polymer, a component which slows down the rate of thinning as the oil warms up and slows down the rate of thickening as the oil cools down.

It was first developed some 50 years ago to avoid the routine of using a thinner oil in winter and a thicker oil in summer.

With regards to 10w-40 for example, to attain the specification target a 10W ( W = winter) the oil must have a certain maximum viscosity at low temperature. The actual viscosity and the temperature vary with the viscosity grade but in all cases the lower the number, the thinner the oil, e.g. a 5W oil is thinner than a 10W oil at temperatures encountered in UK winter conditions.

This is important because a thinner oil will circulate faster on cold start, affording better engine protection.

For a 10w-40 to attain the other specification target a 40 oil must fall within certain limits at 100 deg. C. In this case the temperature target does not vary with the viscosity grade, if there is no "W", the measuring temperature is always 100deg. C. Again the lower the number the thinner the oil, a 30 oil is thinner than a 40 oil at 100 deg. C., which is typical of maximum bulk oil temperatures in an operating engine.

The engine makers are, of course, very well aware of this and specify oils according to engine design features, oil pump capacities, manufacturing tolerances, ambient temperature conditions etc. It is important to follow these guidelines, they are important and are an are stipulated for good reasons.

If the engine has been modified, the operating conditions may well be outside the original design envelope. The stress on the oil caused by increased maximum revs, power output and temperature may indicate that oil of a different type and viscosity grade would be beneficial.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Simon

*drinks 20L of Costco Chevron fully synth in a mad panic*

LOL, put it in the lawnmower!

Cheers

Simon

It's "Valvoline VR1 Racing Full Synthetic SAE 5W-50". There doesn't seem to be any industry standards printed on the packaging, but then I suspect it might be 'not for road use' or somesuch?

Theres nothing wrong with Valvoline 5w50, its one of the best oils for the Supra. We still run it it our 960hp Supra.

There is no doubt better oils out there, but how much better? We won't know that till the Cambridge Uni report comes out next year on performance motor oils.

Gaz.

So would you say that the oil suggested by the Toyota owner's manual (which IIRC) is a semi synthetic 10w40 or thereabouts is a "cheap oil" and therefore not to be recommended?

I only ask because its what the Engineers at Toyota will have used when they thrashed the nuts off the engine on the dyno during its development.

Also, anyone who knows anything about buying and selling knows that "high quality" and "high price" only go hand in hand in brochures. Production price has far more to do with production volume and perceived quality than anything else.

Just playing devil's advocate. For tuned cars and ones regularly thrashed about on the track, do whatever makes you feel warm inside - but for a stocker what is recommended in the book ought to be sufficient.

Theres nothing wrong with Valvoline 5w50, its one of the best oils for the Supra. We still run it it our 960hp Supra.

 

There is no doubt better oils out there, but how much better? We won't know that till the Cambridge Uni report comes out next year on performance motor oils.

 

Gaz.

I use the VR1 5w-50 as well

960bhp? That's gone up since your last dyno

-Ian

I use the VR1 5w-50 as well

 

960bhp?

It had to be you or Alex that said it

Thats at the flywheel

Gaz.

LOL, put it in the lawnmower!

 

Cheers

Simon

Too late *burp*

I need some oil now you mention it though - it can wait until the new year though, the car is in hibernation for a while....

So 5w-50 means it's pretty damn thin in UK winter conditions - which is what we want, but it also doesn't thin up too much at 100C, right? I guess the confusion stems from the fact that the two numbers are not numbers of the same unit. e.g. a low... oh sod it.

So at least this oil is half decent. Good-o

It had to be you or Alex that said it

 

Thats at the flywheel

 

Gaz.

If you lose 160bhp between the flywheel and the hubs I think you should speak to Oilman about gearbox and diff fluids - that sand you've got in there ain't working

-Ian

If you lose 160bhp between the flywheel and the hubs I think you should speak to Oilman about gearbox and diff fluids - that sand you've got in there ain't working

 

-Ian

Gaz.

LOL, put it in the lawnmower!

 

Cheers

Simon

Can you elaborate please Simon?

What's wrong with the Chevron synthetic?

...still waiting to hear why it's only good for the lawnmower....

(I use it, by the way)

Sorry John, missed this one.

It was a joke based around the quality which is really not great. It's a hydrocracked muneral oil and priced as such. The MKIV's are highly tuned engines that require good quality oils. Proper synthetics are the way to go for the best protection of your investment.

For best protection and performance we only recommend proper synthetic oils for these cars.

Cheers

Simon

So are they lying in their description on the link, or are there 'weasel' words that negate the essence of 'synthetic'?

I've still got a few unused bottles from CostCo, I can go there and demand a refund and an apology if that's the case.

Nope, unfortunately it's legal, read this, it explains why.

A word of caution – You get what you pay for!

Below is an article written by John Rowland, Silkolene/Fuchs Chief R & D Chemist for 40 years.

Quote:

Costs of synthetics vary considerably. The most expensive are the “Ester” types originally only used in jet engines. These cost 6 to 10 times more than high quality mineral oils.

The cheapest synthetics are not really synthetic at all, from a chemists point of view. These are in fact specially refined light viscosity mineral oils known as “hydrocracked”. These have some advantages over equivalent mineral oils, particularly in lower viscosity motor oils such as 5w-30 or other oils with a low “W” rating such as 5w-50 etc and they cost about 1.5 times more than good quality mineral fractions.

We use several different grades of this base oil, where appropriate. This is the “synthetic” which is always used in cheap oils that are labelled “synthetic”.

Yes it’s a cruel world, you get what you pay for!

Now, you may ask, why are these special mineral oils called “synthetic”?

Well, it was all sorted in a legal battle that took place in the USA about ten years ago. Sound reasons (including evidence from a Nobel Prize winning chemist) were disregarded and the final ruling was that certain mineral bases that had undergone extra chemical treatments could be called “synthetic”.

Needless to say, the marketing executives wet their knickers with pure delight!

They realised that this meant, and still does, that the critical buzz-word “synthetic” could be printed on a can of cheap oil provided that the contents included a few percent of “hydrocracked” mineral oil, at a cost of quite literally a few pence.

So, the chemistry of “synthetics” is complex and so is the politics!

The economics are very simple. If you like the look of a smart well-marketed can with “synthetic” printed on it, fair enough, it will not cost you a lot; and now you know why this is the case.

But, if you drive a high performance car, and you intend to keep it for several years, and maybe do the odd “track day”, then you need a genuine Ester/PAO (Poly Alpha Olefin) synthetic oil.

This oil costs more money to buy, because it costs us a lot of money to make, very simply, you always get what you pay for!

Unquote:

Hope this helps,

Cheers

Simon

Nope, unfortunately it's legal, read this, it explains why.

Unfortunately for whom?

As a punter I don't care if the profit margin goes to CostCo or another company.

If there is a specific reason for me to treat the full synthetic Chevron as 'lawnmower' material I'd like to know.

If there isn't, I'd like to know that too.

Chevron make the only injector cleaner that really works (as far as I know), so I don't see them as a "Slick50" sort of operation.

If I'm wrong, I'd like to know so I can see the light:OK:

A word of caution – You get what you pay for!

that goes for everything in life: from university degrees to sofas and friends:cool:

All I can say John is, it's your car and money.

If you don't care for the science or what quality you put in your car, that's fine it'll probably do the job. If it's a daily driver and used on the road and therefore not stressed the oil will be able to cope, I assume it's API SL and ACEA A3 spec which is for your protection.

All I would say is if it's ACEA A1 then it may not be up to the job and if the car is modded or used on track I would advise against it as A1 is a basic fuel economy spec, not a performance spec.

I love these cars, they're special, not 1.0L Novas.

Cheers

Simon

...If you don't care for the science or what quality you put in your car, that's fine it'll probably do the job.

I do care about the science, that's why I asked the question here.

I was hoping for something more concrete than "it's my car and my money". I already know that, I've got the V5.

If it's a daily driver and used on the road and therefore not stressed the oil will be able to cope, I assume it's API SL and ACEA A3 spec which is for your protection.

Why would you have to assume when I've linked the spec?

I love these cars, they're special, not 1.0L Novas.

How do the attributes of this specific oil relate to the supra not being a Nova?

Am I missing something here?

John,

What I am trying to say but clearly not succeeding here is that there is a big difference between a hydrocracked (modified mineral oil) and a decent proper pao/ester synthetic quality-wise. There is also a price difference as good basestocks are not cheap but are far superior lubricants in all areas.

Perhaps an explanation of basestocks is needed to illustrate this. All I can do is give you the facts to explain what goes on in the murky world of oil blending where often things are not what they seem or are labelled.

You may not see it as a big issue but at least you will be better informed which has to be a good thing. Check the specs on the can as I suggested.

Basestock categories and descriptions

All oils are comprised of basestocks and additives. Basestocks make up the majority of the finished product and represent between 75-95%.

Not all basestocks are derived from petroleum, in fact the better quality ones are synthetics made in laboratories by chemists specifically designed for the application for which they are intended.

Basestocks are classified in 5 Groups as follows:

Group I

These are derived from petroleum and are the least refined. These are used in a small amount of automotive oils where the applications are not demanding.

Group II

These are derived from petroleum and are mainly used in mineral automotive oils. Their performance is acceptable with regards to wear, thermal stability and oxidation stability but not so good at lower temperatures.

Group III

These are derived from petroleum but are the most refined of the mineral oil basestocks. They are not chemically engineered like synthetics but offer the highest level of performance of all the petroleum basestocks. They are also known as “hydrocracked” or “molecularly modified” basestocks.

They are usually labelled/marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic oils and make up a very high percentage of the oils retailed today.

Group IV

These are polyalphaolefins known as PAO and are chemically manufactured rather than being dug out of the ground. These basestocks have excellent stability in both hot and cold temperatures and give superior protection due to their uniform molecules.

Group V

These special basestocks are also chemically engineered but are not PAO.

The main types used in automotive oils are diesters and polyolesters. Like the group IV basestocks they have uniform molecules and give superior performance and protection over petroleum basestocks. These special stocks are used in all aviation engines due to their stability and durability. Esters are also polar (electro statically attracted to metal surfaces) which has great benefits. They are usually blended with Group IV stocks rather than being used exclusively.

It is common practice for oil companies to blend different basestocks to achieve a certain specification, performance or cost. The blending of group IV and V produces lubricants with the best overall performance which cannot be matched by any of the petroleum basestock groups.

Cheers

Simon

Here is a relevant extract from the link we're talking about:

Chevron Supreme Synthetic Motor Oil is formulated with 100% synthetic base stocks and advanced additive technology giving exceptional stability, long life and performance.

Are you saying that this could still be hydrocracked (modified mineral oil)?

Or is that a general cut'n'paste statement not specific to the oil we're talking about here?

It is important for me to know because I use this oil.

Thanks in advance.