bignum Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 Ok folkes i`m after a bit of advice or ideas here but i`ll start off with a little introduction about myself. I went self employed 10 years ago fitting intruder alarms and cctv systems, business has been up and down over the years but on the whole not to bad. Ive allways managed to get my money in 1 way or another untill now, heres the story. A mate of mine got a call to do some tv/audio system work at a big house that was being completely refurbished. The project manager mentioned an alarm and intercom system to my friend who then gave him my number. I met the project manager at the job and ran through what they wanted, a quotation was produced and sent to him, he accepted the quote and sent me an order. Now for the tricky bit, at the bottom of the order it said that i would be paid directly by the building contractor who i believe has links with the project manager, i thought nothing of this and carried on with the work. Having spoke to other trades people on the job who had worked for the builder and project manager before all saying "getting paid wasent a problem". The job was completed succesfully but i didnt really have alot to do with the builder. I sent an invoice to the address i was given for the builder in october and didnt hear anything or receive any payment. To start with i tried ringing the builder but his number is not in use now, so i rang the project manager who didnt really seem interested and said i`d got to chase the builder.I found 2 more addreses but nobody lives there. Ive since learned that none of the contractors have been paid, which roughly adds to around 40k, ive also spoken to the lady that owns the house, she says she sacked the builder off the job due to poor workmanship having already paid him 120k and theres still work needs finishing. So the builders gone into hiding and the project manager who gave me the order isent interested, was that his gettout clause putting payment will come from the builder or do i stand any chance in a small claims, i had considered some heavy`s but cant really take that route after ive tried legal action. Sorry for this long post, didnt realise how long untill i read it back but you can see my frustration with this dilema, any input will be greatly appreciated,regards simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fat_controller Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 sorry i can't help on this one, i just wanted to say what bumber and surely if the project manager placed the order he has to take some sort of responsibilty for chaseing payment on your behalf. hope you get it all sorted mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRalphMan Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 I guess that you'll have to take advice. How legal is the small print stating you would be paid from someone else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bromy Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 Do you not state on your invoice that all item's remain your company's property until paid for in full. I'd seek legal advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil tt Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 I would have thought whoever signed the order has the responceability:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleapple Posted December 8, 2007 Share Posted December 8, 2007 Very complicated issue. Go seek legal advice. With serving notice on the builder, so long as you have his last known address, this is all that is required. Also check if he is not a registered company (via Companies House) and that his company hasn't been liquidated. The more onerous the terms and conditions the more notice you need to be given. Thus if the term was not a usual term and not obvious then you might not be bound by it. Without knowing or seeing details, you could argue that your contract was with the project manager (the person you contracted with) and thus he is liable. The owner may also be liable since the property is yours until paid for (if you have that in your standard terms and conditions). - Basically get free advice from a solicitor and find out how much to sort it out. Might not be cost effective if it is complicated and you don't have a written contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bignum Posted December 8, 2007 Author Share Posted December 8, 2007 I found the builder on company house webcheck, its a ltd company still trading, i will get legal advice though, thanks for the replies guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil tt Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Goodluck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 I found the builder on company house webcheck, its a ltd company still trading, i will get legal advice though, thanks for the replies guys. If he is still trading then his contact details or other contact details should be there. I know it's not a fortune so investing money with solicitors may be tricky, so I would suggest; get some advice, get all his real trading info, then go to the small claims court; you can actually do it online now.. I have done this before. it costs next to nothing, is pretty easy and if he doesn't turn up they rule in your favour, assuming that you have all the paperwork correct. It's designed exactly for this kind of thing. When the guy I was chasing got the small claims court papers through he buckled straight away. Tell the owner what you are up to, and she may be more willing to help, as if the judge can't get you your money he will give you permission to go and help yourself to your goods... maybe then the owner will be more inclined to help, putting pressure on the manager as well; drag his name through the mud. People like this just make a habit of ripping people off who are fearful of getting their hands stuck into the system. Do some reading and let us know how you get on. Isn't it stupid when you have to do this kind of stuff to get paid for work..? next time make sure you get a signed purcase order too for all your work, even if you make it up and get them to sign it! good luck dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Raven Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 If you can find the offending a*shole you can put a freeze on his bank account till you are paid, ive had to do this once.... 2 days later he paid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleapple Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 so I would suggest; get some advice, get all his real trading info, then go to the small claims court; Only issue I see is that it might not be the builder you should be claiming the money off, it might be the person you initially agreed to do the work for. To give a simple example, If I asked you to build a house, but put at the bottom of the contract that Santa would pay you, without Santa being part of the contract, that term is unenforceable. Privity of contract etc. You need to have someone in the know to decide who to go after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 I'm not sure how legal it is to order something and say someone else is going to pay for it? That's like me ordering a PS3 from PCWorld and saying my neighbour will settle the bill. If you don't get any joy I'd be reclaiming the kit - in fact we have done this in the past with computers. All I can say is act fast otherwise if they go down the pan you'll get naff all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Good luck with it fella. I went LTD a few years ago and as a genral rule i try to keep away from builders. Especially the big companys. just keep on at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bignum Posted December 9, 2007 Author Share Posted December 9, 2007 Thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaw Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 I would've thought it was the project managers duty to provide contractural evidence that between the third party and the project managers company, this arangement had been made. If you chase the third party and they say there was no proof, I think the project manager will be liable. He's the one you should be chasing imo, as he placed the order with you. If he can't physically proove that he made the third party aware that they would be covering the cost of your work, then it is his responsibility entirely. I'd pursue him for proof that this agreement had been made in some shape or form (a letter of intent or contract for example, even general emails would help). If he can't do that, it's all on him really - it says to me that he hasnt approached the company in regards to the payment, and he has some legal issues on his hands. Where as if he can provide adequate proof, then you go to the third party and state that both the order and (contract, emails or whatever) state that it's their responsibility, and they were fully aware of it. I would've thought that after legal action you'd get your money one way or another eventually. They said you should pursue cost from the third party, but if they had no agreement or authorization to do this, they don't have much to stand on. I'm a quantity surveyor/contracts surveyor, but only a trainee at the moment - so I base that on what I've heard with similar issues at work, but I can check with some of the guys at the office next time i'm in, if it'l help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 As its security equipment you install, i presume that you have a clause in your quote/final bill that states all installation remains your property until final payment is made? so as a last resort you can rip it all out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bignum Posted December 9, 2007 Author Share Posted December 9, 2007 I do yes, but the equipment costs werent that high, the installation was more labour intensive, but i can collect equipment as a last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 I've just remembered something. Years ago I designed some buildings for Hadlow College in Kent. As the job progressed to a start date, the Project Managers company placed a pre-order for the steel frame on behalf of the contractor, but the job fell through when the College pulled out, and because of a certain vagueness in the PMs letter to the steel fabricator, the PM company ended up having to pay for, and owning the steel frame for a building that was never going to be built. Many years later that same steel frame was erected at Writtle College so it worked out OK in the long run for the PM, but there's a precedent for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazB Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Was the project manager working as a self employed consultant, sub-contractor for the builder. If so he would have placed the order on the builders behalf. I got shafter for 50k this year when a client didn't pay, has i got my solicitor involved the directors liquidated the company, i'll be lucky to 50p in the £ in may 3 years time I supplyed labour and materials, but the ultimate client paid my client so i could not reclaim the goods Now i would act sooner and send the heavies straight round to collect and suffer there fees. A soon as you go legal the fold and you get nothing, my T&C's are very comprehensive and all clients are vetted prior to us starting work, we will not start until a written order is recieved either, but i still got stung. These type of people are tossers and don't worry who else they hurt by being dodgy, this is one of the reasons so many small companies go to the wall. They deserve a good kicking!!!! As you can imagine i'm quite anoyed about loosing 50k when somebody else as been paid for my work. Company's House don't seem to do anything about these types of directors, the management company that closes the company strip the last bits of assest with there fees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl_S Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 How annoying to the extreme. Heavy's not a good idea. Heavy legal (local solicitor) very good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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