Tricky-Ricky Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Was driving the car in town and a couple of country roads this morning, and started watching the wide band display, and noticed that on acceleration no boost and below 4,000 RPM i was getting AFRs going down into the 9s now is this normal for the std ECU? there are no adjustments to the EMU below 4,000 RPM at least not until it comes on boost, also the std ECU is fed with a sim WB signal which i have no reason to doubt as it reads fine elsewhere in the RPM load range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan.G Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Hey Mate Firstly i would Check the Analog outputs are still set correctly on the innovate and then make sure then are actual giving a reading out correctly against your afr gauge. Secondly you sure you EMU is alright after the whole dyno ignition timing thing Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suprafan72 Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Surely toyota wouldn't map it so rich even in closed loop?? Find that very odd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan.G Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Did the car feel as normal also as 9:1 afr would be horriable to drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 Hey Mate Firstly i would Check the Analog outputs are still set correctly on the innovate and then make sure then are actual giving a reading out correctly against your afr gauge. Secondly you sure you EMU is alright after the whole dyno ignition timing thing Ryan Will hook up the laptop and check later, but I'm pretty sure the settings are OK, the Innovate doesn't give trouble, will also go through the EMU but it seems to be OK elsewhere in the range,mind you i haven't driven it a lot so it could be, perhaps I'll just zero the maps and see how it behaves, I'll get some data logs before and after, strange as i haven't noticed it before, but maybe thats down to not really looking at the AFR when driving around town etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 Did the car feel as normal also as 9:1 afr would be horriable to drive. No it felt fine come to think of it, when it went tits up on the way to the RR it was running 9s on full boost and caused a nasty misfire, hmm its almost as if the NB output is not in agreement with the WB but I'm sure it set right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Do you know what voltage the stock ECU is expecting to see from a narrowband? I know it's 0 to 1v, but what voltage = stoich, and what is 13:1 etc? Do you have stock injectors? -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 Do you know what voltage the stock ECU is expecting to see from a narrowband? I know it's 0 to 1v, but what voltage = stoich, and what is 13:1 etc? Do you have stock injectors? -Ian I don't think the ECU is that selective in that respect, it just needs to see an osculation above and below the switching point 0.45v but having said that it may have an amplitude threshold, and if its not met then there may be a error condition, will have to check the manual.and yes stock injectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxcat Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Why you're thinking that this is "closed loop"? I think the ECU just can't compensate... By the way.. I think that EMU are changing the INJ signal even when the map is zeroed... Even with "anti-rich" adapter Nr2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 If the ECU is trying to "compensate" then by definition it is in closed loop. Anyway despite that you might have a point - acceleration drops the ECU out of closed loop. How long does it take to get back to ticking around 14 to 15:1 after a jab of the throttle? The EMU doesn't alter injector signals unless you tell it to, be it with the maps or with the lag times or the global injector adjust feature. Maybe these last two are affecting it? -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxcat Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 If the ECU is trying to "compensate" then by definition it is in closed loop. I think that it will be realy closed only in case of AFR 14.7 (at least periodically).. If the ECU can't do that - it will "give up" and the "closed loop zone" will become open loop with max correction (IMHO) The EMU doesn't alter injector signals unless you tell it to, be it with the maps In my case it does (and I'm sure that there is no correction in "lag times or the global injector adjust feature" in my case). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 I think that it will be realy closed only in case of AFR 14.7 (at least periodically).. If the ECU can't do that - it will "give up" and the "closed loop zone" will become open loop with max correction (IMHO) The ECU can run out of adjustment range but it'll still be in closed loop. It doesn't "give up" it just sits at whatever AFR it managed to get to. It goes into closed loop under steady state conditions, such as cruise, idle, gentle acceleration. It comes out under conditions such as cold coolant, large changes in throttle position, a certain boost pressure, a certain amount of revs (4000+). When it is in closed loop it tries to achieve about 15:1 AFRs (not stoich, a touch leaner as that's what Toyota wanted it seems). It hits 15:1 because it's in closed loop, not when it hits 15:1 it's classed as being in closed loop - cart before the horse, cause before the effect In my case it does (and I'm sure that there is no correction in "lag times or the global injector adjust feature" in my case). Do your datalogs show a difference between stock generated durations and resultant durations? Or anything other than 0% in the injector correction data stream? Is it a constant adjustment or seemingly random? (this may be a bit of a hijack) -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 Slight hijack Ian but its all interesting, as far as my problem/or not goes, its obviously during an acceleration stage, so responding to throttle change, although its not exactly like I'm flooring it, in fact quite gentle, so the ECU will be out of closed loop then? even on mild and not quick throttle openings, but why is it going quite so rich, as i said it behaves as i would expect otherwise, but if i think about it always goes too rich on acceleration, think i may have posted a remark on this before, So to my thinking it seems to be over responding to the speed and amount of throttle opening, maybe i should try another throttle pot, but I'm sure i have tested the resistance change, so what else could it be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxcat Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 The ECU can run out of adjustment range but it'll still be in closed loop. It doesn't "give up" it just sits at whatever AFR it managed to get to. It goes into closed loop under steady state conditions, such as cruise, idle, gentle acceleration. It comes out under conditions such as cold coolant, large changes in throttle position, a certain boost pressure, a certain amount of revs (4000+)... Ok. So it's just my wrong understanding of "closed loop".. I've always thought that it becomes "closed" only in case of success with lambda results... Do your datalogs show a difference between stock generated durations and resultant durations? Or anything other than 0% in the injector correction data stream? Is it a constant adjustment or seemingly random? (this may be a bit of a hijack) Datalogs of EMU always showed that IN duty = OUT duty (if the map was zeroed). BUT when I've made some test drives I've found that AFR with EMU in the middle (and zeroed! maps) is slightly richer at low RPMs and slightly leaner at high revs compared with DIRECT ECU->INJ wiring... That was strange but fact. The oxygen sensors was disabled for that test. Same road, same fuel. Everything was the same, excluding AFR Another interesting fact - when EMU was connected between ECU and injectors it logged ~1...1.5% duty at idle, but when it was connected only with it's INs to ECU->INJector wires - it logged 0.7...1% at idle... I think that EMU inputs affected ECU somehow... But it's a question for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Slight hijack Ian but its all interesting, as far as my problem/or not goes, its obviously during an acceleration stage, so responding to throttle change, although its not exactly like I'm flooring it, in fact quite gentle, so the ECU will be out of closed loop then? even on mild and not quick throttle openings, but why is it going quite so rich, as i said it behaves as i would expect otherwise, but if i think about it always goes too rich on acceleration, think i may have posted a remark on this before, So to my thinking it seems to be over responding to the speed and amount of throttle opening, maybe i should try another throttle pot, but I'm sure i have tested the resistance change, so what else could it be? Can you datalog the whole shebang and wing it my way, I can compare the actual injector durations with know good logs to see if it's opening them too long or your O2 sensor is going mad or something -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Ok. So it's just my wrong understanding of "closed loop".. I've always thought that it becomes "closed" only in case of success with lambda results... Closed loop = ECU reacting to the result of it's fuelling (via the narrowband sensor). Open loop = ECU fuels according to tables and ignores the resulting fuel mix. That's about it really Datalogs of EMU always showed that IN duty = OUT duty (if the map was zeroed). BUT when I've made some test drives I've found that AFR with EMU in the middle (and zeroed! maps) is slightly richer at low RPMs and slightly leaner at high revs compared with DIRECT ECU->INJ wiring... That was strange but fact. The oxygen sensors was disabled for that test. Same road, same fuel. Everything was the same, excluding AFR Another interesting fact - when EMU was connected between ECU and injectors it logged ~1...1.5% duty at idle, but when it was connected only with it's INs to ECU->INJector wires - it logged 0.7...1% at idle... I think that EMU inputs affected ECU somehow... But it's a question for me. Ah, well, OK if you've done that level of testing then yes it probably does muck about with the injector signals a bit then, I suppose. At least it's consistent though, so it's still mappable -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 Can you datalog the whole shebang and wing it my way, I can compare the actual injector durations with know good logs to see if it's opening them too long or your O2 sensor is going mad or something -Ian If i get time I'll do a couple tomorrow, unless i get enough time to change my injectors, in which case i do the same with the new ones, never know it might cure it:sly: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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