colsoop Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 As said above the person who organised it needs to claim for damaged item. Lots of photos of the damage and the packaing need to be sent off to help with your case. I hope whoever sent it insured it adequately to the value of the item being sent (£475)! When i arrange my deliveries there is an option to increase the cover to suit the parcel being sent (at extra cost ) so if the item hasn't had the appropriate cover added then im afraid the standard amount for the coruier is all you are likely to get. And that in my view leaves whoever sent it liable for not adequately covering the potential risks (assuming they didn't cover it of course) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 If the courrier broke the bonnet then a stupid disclaimer on their form means that you can only claim up to x amount means nothing. They wont pay out, but any small claims court would award you the correct compensation if you have proof that the bonnet wasnt damaged before or after transit, which i dont think you have. Problem is proveing it. The person that is signing for the parcel can probably argue successfully that he cant be "reasonably" expected to understand that signing for the goods means more than just excepting the goods i.e that they are in good condition. Way i see it, if this did go to court with you as the defendant and whoever bought the bonnet as the claimant, it would go either one of two ways; they ask you to pay the full amount, or pay a partcial amount. Unfortuneatly there are 4 parties involved and not much evidence. On a moral ground, you arnt out of pocket, just out of bonnet, a bonnet you didnt want in the first place, the other chap is down nearly £500, and will be dont say £1k to get this probelm sorted, so i believe you have a moral obligation to at least offer some form of compensation at least before he takes you to court, which may even cost you another say £100 in court fees which you would pay if he won Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 I sent some goods out to a member on here and was told months later that it hadn't arrived. Although some time had passed I offered a full refund straight away as I took his money and he had bugger all. He was happy to wait for a FOC replacement which I made sure happend. It took me nearly six months to get my money back from the delivery company but even if they hadn't paid out I still saw it as my responsibility rather than the buyers and would have been happy knowing I had done the right thing. Just my experience of a similar issue;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mk47 Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Same thing just happened to me on here, but it wasnt as high a value. I sold a roof spoiler for £100 and it arrived damaged, I just refunded the buyer back straight away to pursue claims myself with DHL/Parcel2go. Although they are crap and wont pay out, i think its only fair to refund the buyer as its not their fault.. Same situation again where the buyer signed before checking with me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 I sent some goods out to a member on here and was told months later that it hadn't arrived. Although some time had passed I offered a full refund straight away as I took his money and he had bugger all. He was happy to wait for a FOC replacement which I made sure happend. It took me nearly six months to get my money back from the delivery company but even if they hadn't paid out I still saw it as my responsibility rather than the buyers and would have been happy knowing I had done the right thing. Just my experience of a similar issue;) to what value though? this is like £500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkirby Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 to what value though? this is like £500 to be honest it does not matter, until its arrived safe and sound its always the sellers responsibility for the goods, what should happen "in a perfect world" is the buyer gets refunded by the seller and the seller pursues the shipping company to get his money back Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleapple Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 I think CJ's comment re the 'sign for' is right and thus the seller will be responsible for the damage (and it is the sellers duty to take it up with the agents who delivered it.) The seller has a duty under the Sales of Goods Act to make sure that the item is of sellable quality and fit for purpose, and whilst the buyer did sign for the item, the more onerous the clause the more the party relying on the clause should make the other party aware of it. Thus having him sign for an item to remove the sellers liability, in my opinion, is unlikely to be valid since he would not expect to be entering into a legal contract when opening the door and taking delivery. If the delivery agent went to great lengths to make the buyer aware of what he was signing (which lets be honest he won't have done) and the clause was bold and red for example, would the seller perhaps avoid liaibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopite Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 Some interesting view points here. Next time i order something and sign for it, what's to stop me scratching the finish on some door sills etc and then demanding a full refund and keeping the sills? So the buyer is out of pocket but why the hell do people sign for goods then? For fun? There would be no problem if there had been a check done. I have persued the couriers and they've said there's no offer on the cards, the £100 was hard to get as it was but is no longer available. I can't claim anything for the bonnet via the couriers after the package was signed for. Will be placing some orders soon, there's a goldmine to be had through this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Very Very tough one.... But following on from reading this thread I made the delivery guy wait 2 hours today while I checked a shipment of cisco kit (5 pallet loads to be accurate worth £450k), he didn't seem to mind since I cleared it with delivery company and said 'I will not sign till I've checked it ALL, all 90 boxes worth)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopite Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 Stick a claim in anyway mate, get your money back and keep the gear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 But you aren't saying that the bonnet wasn't damaged and you got photos to confirm this? I'm sure if you wanted the damaged item returned then he'll do that, it seems you are drifting from the original facts by suggesting people lie about the condition something has arrived in to get it for free? Not really the same thing? Before I offered a refund I checked to see it wasn't delivered and no, it wasn't anywhere near £500. It's a difficult one and the amount of money involved makes the whole situation messy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozz Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Personally I agree with Matt's comments - the buyer is left with no bonnet and nearly £500 out of pocket, I'd be threatening court action in his position. I'd be careful with comments like post 35 as it could be taken the wrong way and just sounds like you are really bitter and the guy was out to defraud you. I don't know the legal position, but morally I'd be offering at least 50% goodwill (personnaly I'd refund the lot). You say cash is tight but ateotd I'm sure £500 isn't nothing to the other guy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Stick a claim in anyway mate, get your money back and keep the gear You keep saying this but I don't anywhere where anyone has suggested this would be the way to proceed. In your situation I'd expect you to end up with the damaged bonnet and the buyer to end up with a refund, they wouldn't get both unless you decided the bonnet was worthless to you and didn't want it back. Your wheel scenario above would be the same, the supplier would ask for the wheels back, inspect them and then issue the refund before trying to claim the money back from the courier who apparently caused the damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopite Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 The point is Michael, the photos etc have been issued to the couriers - they said no compensation is due anywhere because the buyer accept the bonnet with a signature Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 In your situation I'd expect you to end up with the damaged bonnet and the buyer to end up with a refund, they wouldn't get both unless you decided the bonnet was worthless to you and didn't want it back. I have to agree with this, if the courier did offer £100 compo at some stage then the fact that it was signed for wasn't that big an issue as they must be admitting something went wrong. It would seem that the item being under insured was the main factor here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozz Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 The point is Michael, the photos etc have been issued to the couriers - they said no compensation is due anywhere because the buyer accept the bonnet with a signature Couries are hardly likely to admit liability though. It does seem that through peoples comments on here, legally it is questionable which suggests it could easily go to court and you would have to take your chance, and morally you should offer some kind of refund. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopite Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 I have to agree with this, if the courier did offer £100 compo at some stage then the fact that it was signed for wasn't that big an issue as they must be admitting something went wrong. It would seem that the item being under insured was the main factor here. The £100 offer was a business/commercial one as it was when they were affiliated with Envy - Envy have dropped the couriers due to poor communication etc (their own reasons) so this offer is no longer available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 The £100 offer was a business/commercial one as it was when they were affiliated with Envy - Envy have dropped the couriers due to poor communication etc (their own reasons) so this offer is no longer available. OK, fair enough:) Makes this part of it clearer;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamc Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 to be honest it does not matter, until its arrived safe and sound its always the sellers responsibility for the goods, what should happen "in a perfect world" is the buyer gets refunded by the seller and the seller pursues the shipping company to get his money back Mike Some interesting view points here. Next time i order something and sign for it, what's to stop me scratching the finish on some door sills etc and then demanding a full refund and keeping the sills? So the buyer is out of pocket but why the hell do people sign for goods then? For fun? There would be no problem if there had been a check done. I have persued the couriers and they've said there's no offer on the cards, the £100 was hard to get as it was but is no longer available. I can't claim anything for the bonnet via the couriers after the package was signed for. Will be placing some orders soon, there's a goldmine to be had through this Very Very tough one.... But following on from reading this thread I made the delivery guy wait 2 hours today while I checked a shipment of cisco kit (5 pallet loads to be accurate worth £450k), he didn't seem to mind since I cleared it with delivery company and said 'I will not sign till I've checked it ALL, all 90 boxes worth)... But you aren't saying that the bonnet wasn't damaged and you got photos to confirm this? I'm sure if you wanted the damaged item returned then he'll do that, it seems you are drifting from the original facts by suggesting people lie about the condition something has arrived in to get it for free? Not really the same thing? Before I offered a refund I checked to see it wasn't delivered and no, it wasn't anywhere near £500. It's a difficult one and the amount of money involved makes the whole situation messy. Personally I agree with Matt's comments - the buyer is left with no bonnet and nearly £500 out of pocket, I'd be threatening court action in his position. I'd be careful with comments like post 35 as it could be taken the wrong way and just sounds like you are really bitter and the guy was out to defraud you. I don't know the legal position, but morally I'd be offering at least 50% goodwill (personnaly I'd refund the lot). You say cash is tight but ateotd I'm sure £500 isn't nothing to the other guy... I agree with the above as well Stick a claim in anyway mate, get your money back and keep the gear This sort of comment is totally out of order. At the end of the day you have no proof that the bonnet was in a good condition when it was sent. You should refund the cash. I did not realise that you have to check the goods first, will do so from now on. Most times when I have had things delivered, they hand you the thing to sign, before they give you the package. I hear you claim that money is tight? How tight can it be if your car has been living at Envy for how long now? I am sorry but this sort of this pisses me off, because it is always the person buying that gets screwed over!! As Envy what they would do if this sort of thing happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaz1 Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 i bought a set of wheels from envy, the guy turned up on saturday morning, he had already unloaded them before knocking my door, i signed at the door he left, i opened one box and there was a dent with a bit missing as if something had been dropped on it, all the boxes looked like they were new and undamaged, i rang envy only to be told they will try to make a claim to the courior, well that did not happen and i felt a bit pissed to say the least, but such is life eh, but if i was a trader i could sell all my damaged goods for full price by mail order, at the end of the day this guy paid you an amount of money for an item, you chose the courior, so i would think the court would go in his favour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopite Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 I agree with the above as well This sort of comment is totally out of order. At the end of the day you have no proof that the bonnet was in a good condition when it was sent. You should refund the cash. I hear you claim that money is tight? How tight can it be if your car has been living at Envy for how long now? Wind your neck in and don't comment on any of my personal circumstances. I challenge you to prove that Turbofit screwed your car then and that it wasn't you tinkering? I don't have any proof no because I've not had an issue like this before, how many people photograph themselves packing a box to prove it was fine? At the end of the day, how do i know he didn't drop it when it was being fitted etc? I don't. No one does, I don't believe he did but if i challenged him to prove that, i doubt he could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopite Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 i bought a set of wheels from envy, the guy turned up on saturday morning, he had already unloaded them before knocking my door, i signed at the door he left, i opened one box and there was a dent with a bit missing as if something had been dropped on it, all the boxes looked like they were new and undamaged, i rang envy only to be told they will try to make a claim to the courior, well that did not happen and i felt a bit pissed to say the least, but such is life eh, but if i was a trader i could sell all my damaged goods for full price by mail order, at the end of the day this guy paid you an amount of money for an item, you chose the courior, so i would think the court would go in his favour So did you demand a full refund for the wheel? The comment you made about selling damaged goods by mail is a fair one, same way though anyone receiving the goods could sign and then ask for a refund and "say" that they're damaged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaz1 Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 So did you demand a full refund for the wheel? The comment you made about selling damaged goods by mail is a fair one, same way though anyone receiving the goods could sign and then ask for a refund and "say" that they're damaged. no i did not expect a full refund but when you pay 2k for wheels you expect them to be undamaged, but i had 3 perfect and one slightly damaged, to be honest i expected a bit more than getting fobbed off with its the couriors fault, but then this guy has nothing of use to him, its always going to be a diffucult situation when you buy mail order i hate it, but most people have no choice:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nicholas Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Ro did you package up the bonnet yourself? if so the packaging was not adequate and as such you as the seller are to blame. If you didn't package it but someone else did I'd be asking them to cover the cost of a refund. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbleapple Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Kopite, I realise that it is a pain in the arse for you and you are not liking what you are hearing but like it or not, sadly the consensus and the legal position is against you. As it stands, the buyer has been left with products which are sub standard and are a breach to the Sales of Goods Act. As a seller you have a legal duty to refund for this damage. Like it or not... I am more than happy to give you specifics if you would like. The signing for the goods it a method to prove to the seller that the item arrived. The term that everything should be checked and rejected, is a common attempt to limit the sellers (and delivery agent's) liability for damage. Sadly for you though this would be VERY unlikely to hold up in Court since the term has such importance but it would have not been made very clear to your customer. Again I can give you the specific legal cases etc if you like. If I were your solicitor, (which I am not and thus all I say is my own opinion and independent legal advice should be obtained before relying on what I say) I would suggest that your opposition is not the customer but the delivery agent. They have damaged the item in transit and you should refund the customer and sue the delivery agent for the poor service. If the customer is willing to work with you against the delivery agent, you would likely be able to claim damages. No delivery agent would accept they were at fault or offer a refund without being forced since it would set a precedent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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