Bonnet Dispute With GJP (Gary)

[Kopite]

Around January time, I sold a Border carbon bonnet to GJP on here. He paid straight away and the car was off the road in the shop and I said I'd arrange postage ASAP etc. As the car was about to get back on the road at the time, I then tried to source a stock replacement and informed him that it would be a little while until I could send the bonnet off. I found a bonnet and was arranging collection when the bonnet suddenly became no longer available. I informed Gary about this, he was very patient etc which again I thanked him for. The Supra from March was up on the ramps in Envy having things done, they were going to be removing and packing the bonnet in the original boxes and arranging collection via Nightfreight Couriers on my behalf. As they were very busy they didn't have the time to clear cars out to lower mine from the lift and remove the bonnet so it dragged on a few more weeks later. At the end of April/start of May, the bonnet was sent when they did get a chance to remove it.

I have no evidence to prove that the bonnet was fine when it was removed as I simply didn't think that I'd need pictures of it being packed etc, my advice to anyone sending parts out is to take pictures of yourself packing it!

Gary received the bonnet and it was signed for.

The next day, he emailed me saying the bonnet was cracked and broken and sent pictures comfirming this and he was very pissed off which I understand as he'd waited about 4 months in total for it.

I asked the couriers about how it was treated during shipment, their stance was that the parcel was signed for etc and that it should have been checked first. They made an offer of £100 which Gary wasn't happy with.

Since then, their view is that it was signed for which is what they've said everytime it's been questioned. Gary says the box was poorly packed and has pictures of this, whether this is true or not doesn't carry any water with the couriers or myself to be honest because it was still signed for. If it hadn't have been signed for then the bonnet would of been scrapped and compensation via the couriers given.

The latest PM from Gary is that he will be chasing legal advice as he has a case against the sender.

The main reason that I'm putting this up is that I fail to see how he has any case and I don't want Gary to waste more money. I was going to put this in Dispute Resolution but I'd like a few more viewpoints on it from the forum.

I'm trying to be constructive with this so any of the usual shit stirrers and stay out unless they're trying to add some useful comments.

[jamesmark]

My understanding on anything that is delivered by courier, whether it be private or from a company is that you check the contents before you sign. If you do sign and damage is found later then you cannot claim. The only factor that may differ is that it was signed by a 3rd party.

 

To me and going on a past claim I had he will waste his money.

[RobSheffield]

I bought a bonnet 3 years ago, mum signed for it while i was at work, it was in 2 pieces, i lost out, simple as that

 

Lesson learnt

[CJ]

I would contact the courier company and point out that the delivery driver did not tell the recipient that they were signing for the goods unchecked.

 

We have used this before (and won in a small claims court) against 2 courier companies.

[neil tt]

I had the same with a bonnet, my wife signed for it, it was damaged, I lost out:(

[Gaz Walker]

I would contact the courier company and point out that the delivery driver did not tell the recipient that they were signing for the goods unchecked.

 

We have used this before (and won in a small claims court) against 2 courier companies.

 

It actually says on the sheet that you are signing "Goods received in good condition" though CJ. I guess it differs from courier to courier however.

 

Regards,

 

Gaz.

[Kopite]

I would contact the courier company and point out that the delivery driver did not tell the recipient that they were signing for the goods unchecked.

 

We have used this before (and won in a small claims court) against 2 courier companies.

 

Quote from GJP was:

"As far as I know it was just signed for as a lot of parcels we get they wont let us open them to check the goods as they will not take them back if we do."

 

I'm told that this isn't true as the terms & conditions for a courier state that a driver must wait at least 15 minutes to allow a receipient to check the goods over if asked. We have no idea what the driver did or didn't say and this is going back almost 6 months now since the bonnet was received. The email from gary with the damage pictures was dated the 6th May 2007

[CJ]

It actually says on the sheet that you are signing "Goods received in good condition" though CJ. I guess it differs from courier to courier however.

 

Regards,

 

Gaz.

 

I agree Gaz but as the two beaks at the county court sitting said, neither time was the recipient told that they were signing as "goods received in good condition". They are asked to "sign here" and most do without ever thinking that they need to check beforehand.

[supradibbs]

I agree when signing for goods you are saying that they are recieved in good condition

 

I made the courier wait 20 mins whilst i unpacked my wheels from Envy no because i dont trust them but simply because it makes sense too when spending out alot of hard earned cash

[Kopite]

There might possibly be an issue with the courier service but what are people's opinions on where my involvment ends? I fail to see how there can be a court claim against me due to this?

[CJ]

Well, if I was the guy who had paid and waited I think I would be more than a tad pissed off and would expect some sort of recompense. You mentioned that the courier offered £100. How much more would it have been to give him his money back?

 

If the bonnet had cost £200 (just a figure to use as an example) and you supplied him with the extra £100, then at least you would have got something and he would be paid back.

 

As it is now, the only one losing out is the buyer as you have been paid in full, the courier is paid and happy and he has feck all for his outgoing.

 

Just a thought eh?

[Kopite]

I think it was £475 plus delivery but i can't find the PMs with the price about it. So if it was fucked up in transit and he signed to say he was accepting it and didn't check it over, then wants a full refund, is it fair that I lose out £375 when i fulfilled me end albeit a bit late? He was kept up to date with PMs about the delays, could of asked for a full refund at anytime if he was not willing to wait. As it stands, I would of lost out compeltely as there'd be no compensation from Nightfreight. How does that work then?

[CJ]

I take it that you have no interest in paying him any compensation then and that the purpose of the thread is to try and get as many people as possible to post up saying you are in the right so as to make you feel OK about it all.

 

Ah well, I'm out of here.

[michael]

I'm not sure if this still the case but I seem to recall that offering compensation is often perceived as an admission of guilt, it works slightly differently if it's a goodwill gesture but even then why would the courier offer this if they have a clause on the sheet to say the item is signed for in good condition and don't believe they caused the damage?

 

Envy could have damaged it during removal / packing but this seems highly unlikely, I wouldn't imagine the buyer gave it kicking once he got home so you'd point the finger at the courier... and they seem to be offering compensation for something... perhaps there is a case there after all?

 

Either way I can understand the frustrations of the buyer and find it difficult to point the blame for the situation in their direction due to a lack of understanding over the need to inspect, perhaps we should all be insisting items are inspected before signing in future?

 

Is it the seller's responsibility to ensure the buyer is aware of such things on a potentially fragile item that they haven't packed or sent?

 

http://www.nightfreight.co.uk/FileUploads/Nightfreight%20T&C%204%20April%202006%20SEC.pdf

 

Their terms and conditions seem to cover them quite well but as the seller would be the one aware of this is it their responsibility to ensure the seller / agent handling the deal (who may not know which courier and subsequent policies need to be adhered to) makes the buyer aware of any terms such as the need to inspect first?

 

I see the potential for a court case here but I don't see it being an easy one, probably one of those where the judge either likes one party or the other or just has a grudge against couriers...

[Kopite]

I take it that you have no interest in paying him any compensation then and that the purpose of the thread is to try and get as many people as possible to post up saying you are in the right so as to make you feel OK about it all.

 

Ah well, I'm out of here.

 

I don't see that I should no. I stated the purpose of the thread, it was to get viewpoints about where the issue lies and whether he would be wasting his money in seeking compensation from the couriers.

you might be made of money Col, I'm not. £375 is a lot to me and I'm sure it is to GJP too. If you're going to get in a strop about me giving my view point then kindly piss off out of the thread.

[michael]

I fail to see how there can be a court claim against me due to this?

 

He agreed the trade with you, his case would be against you. Should he win you'd probably have to take your chosen agent, in this case Envy, to court (if necessary) and they in turn would need to do the same with their chosen shipping company.

 

Personally I couldn't be doing with the hassle, I'd refund the full amount and take up the claim with the courier myself or write it off as a learning experience.

[CJ]

I don't see that I should no. I stated the purpose of the thread, it was to get viewpoints about where the issue lies and whether he would be wasting his money in seeking compensation from the couriers.

you might be made of money Col, I'm not. £375 is a lot to me and I'm sure it is to GJP too. If you're going to get in a strop about me giving my view point then kindly piss off out of the thread.

 

Erm...have a look at what I posted and then read your reply and then tell me who is having a strop.

 

If all you wanted to read was replies saying you are in the right then you should have asked for them. I for one believe that you have a certain responsibility as a seller. Now, if that is perceived as being stroppy then so be it.

[CJ]

He agreed the trade with you, his case would be against you. Should he win you'd probably have to take your chosen agent, in this case Envy, to court (if necessary) and they in turn would need to do the same with their chosen shipping company.

 

Personally I couldn't be doing with the hassle, I'd refund the full amount and take up the claim with the courier myself or write it off as a learning experience.

 

Good post - I agree.

[Kopite]

He agreed the trade with you, his case would be against you. Should he win you'd probably have to take your chosen agent, in this case Envy, to court (if necessary) and they in turn would need to do the same with their chosen shipping company.

 

Personally I couldn't be doing with the hassle, I'd refund the full amount and take up the claim with the courier myself or write it off as a learning experience.

 

 

So in the future when someone receives a set of wheels which are damaged in transit although the customer signs for them, you expect the traders to simply refund the customer and let them keep the wheels? Do you think many traders would do that?

Looks like it's going to court then.

[JamesG]

Difficult situation. I've been on the receiving end of damaged deliveries before now, and it's a lot of hassle.

 

Seems to me, if the form the buyer signed stated that the buyer had checked the item, then he has no comeback. Although, as CJ said, a small claims court may think differently if the buyer wasn't informed verbally as well.

 

I think it's fairly common knowledge you should either check the goods you are receiving or at least write "UNCHECKED" next to your signature.

 

Personally, if I was the seller I'd accept the 100 quid the courier company offered, give it to the buyer and leave it at that. It's then up to the buyer if he wants to take it further.

[RobSheffield]

I can see the point of view of many on here, that if it doesnt say 'you are signing your life away' then a court may see compensation is in order.

 

I doubt Envy would damage it, New owner likely wouldnt, so as Michael said, thats the couriers.

 

As far as i would see IF compensation is to be sought or awarded it would come from the couriers.

[Darren]

If I was signing for a carbon bonnet id check the item first.

 

All the courier firms say 'received in good condition' on the forms.

 

The purchaser must take some responsibility as the goods are insured for damaged up until they are signed for 'in good condition'. Theres no insurance from that point onwards.

[Kopite]

Part of the reason I am unwilling to offer compensation from my own pocket is that the moment it was signed for at the other end, it removed any come back I HAD with the courier which meant there's no way I could be refunded either. I'd love to be able to do the goodwill thing just to end it, but with personal circumstances the way they are, there's no way I could afford too. That's not an admission etc, but I hate stress and can't be doing with it. Since court action was threatened then I'm being careful in what I say as I don't want anything I'm saying in open conversation used against me.

[mkirby]

From a courier point of view it needs to be the person who either booked the delivery or has the account which it was sent from who needs to make this claim.

 

You need to know what the claim limit it, ours (parcelforce) is £150 as standard but most other couriers are lower than this, i would assume that it had £100 on yours? need to check this.

 

When it comes to sorting the claims its difficult because on one side you get your people who package stuff in a really crap manner and i mean crap, ive seen bikes put in a bin bag and posted, ive seen an lcd tv with a piece of cardboard taped over the screen section and the best one is (and bear in mind our size limit is 1.5m) a pair of raindeer which weighed 150kg each and were 8ft tall with two bits of cardboard over their antlers LOL

 

All i'm saying is its the senders responsibility to make sure its packaged correctly and the couriers job to make sure it gets there, i know we dont make the reciever check the goods before signing but then again with us you can still make a claim afterwards and i think its a cop out if they have a disclaimer on the "sign for" sheet saying if you sign for it then its recieved in good condition!! but if it did have this and the reciever did sign for it without checking it then unfortunately its his/hers responsibility.

 

Lesson learnt, dont use nightfreight, there well known for carrying big ugly heavy traffic so if your posting a fragile item it stands a good chance of being broken

 

Mike

[MONKEYmark]

i once worked in a catalogue delivery company many years ago loading big artic lorrys should have seen them loading it.used to throw parcels at back smashing them against the back of trailer.throwing portable tv`s too.i always wrap my parcels a bit ott.get plenty of padded plastic and use at least a roll of tape to make sure its well wrapped.

makes you think twice before signing for anything.