NA Performance

[Sted]

 

As already stated you are not going to get big gains in performance from the engine. Performance wise I would fit a decent quality stainless steel exhaust, fit a decat pipe in place of the second cat and fit a tubular exhaust manifold. These parts will give you modest gains in terms of power, but should help make the car feel more responsive and lively.

 

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I would also give the car a thorough service, ie. change of fluids, plugs, filter, oxygen sensors, timing belt, etc. (see service manuals attached). This way you'll know it is running as well as it can do.

 

I agree with Col, getting you car set up and handling as good as it can, would be what I'd spend my money on, once properly set up it'll be faster, handle better and be more satisfying to drive.

 

Suspension

I would go for a set of new Bilstein dampers and a set of lowering springs (Eibach, Tein, etc.) Also get the suspension components (arms, bushes, joints, etc.) checked for wear. Completely overhauling the suspension components with new OEM parts will absolutely transform the handling of the car.

 

Brakes

Most NA Supras come as standard with the smaller spec 2pot front/1pot rear brakes. I would upgrade to the larger spec 4pot front/2 pot rear brakes (see pics/details HERE). Spend a decent amount of money on some quality brake pads, fit a set of braided brake lines and decent brake fluid. Better braking will make the car faster.

 

Handling

A decent set of performance tyres will make a big improvement in traction, handling and ride.

 

As you have an aero top, I'd also consider fitting a set of front and rear tower bars, floor and rear braces, to help tighten things up a little when cornering.

 

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I'm curious - which post had the useful info regarding performance improvements? The general view is that NA performance is not easily improved - and in fact to do so, you'd need a bigger money tree than you would to replace a couple of turbos.

 

 

Please see above post that I found useful.

 

Also, the difference will be when I chose to upgrade the performance of my car I will already have the funds to do it as it is a CHOICE, hence no need for a money tree!

Last time I checked you couldn't chose when your turbo knackers up.;)

[cowboy bebop]

That's kind of why I asked. I thought that cams usually supported other mods.

 

I don't find a power drop off mid rpm with my car, but perhaps I'm not sensitive enough.

 

What effect do the cams have on idle?

 

All mods work together when it comes down to it, and cams are the single biggest change you can do to the NA motor that will affect HP. The compression ratio is already fairly high, and after the intake /exhaust is taken care of, the next step is cams.

 

Here is the car at idle. The cams are more aggressive than stock as you can hear. It sounds incredible when revving up.

 

[hoff]

It seems you have a similar situation to me. I have an NA. I love it and have spent good money on making look the way I want. Now im starting to want power gains. i know its not worth doing any mods to an NA engine so im going to do the NA-TT conversion. I dont see the point on selling my car and spending more than the 3k it would cost to do the conversion on a TT and then mod that. It just makes more sense for me to do the conversion. But as previously stated if its not a great bhp increase you're after improve the handling and braking. That will allow for a greater driving experiance.

[danny_silva]

this is my list of things to do in the winter!!

 

bore my block to 3.2(if possible)

Pistons for the block!!

fuel regulator and a diferent air sensor!!

 

hopefuly it will be fine for 250bhp!! bui i will live it for capricorn boys!!

[RobSheffield]

this is my list of things to do in the winter!!

 

bore my block to 3.2(if possible)

Pistons for the block!!

fuel regulator and a diferent air sensor!!

 

hopefuly it will be fine for 250bhp!! bui i will live it for capricorn boys!!

 

3.2 will need a stroker kit (££££) and will see 0.0000001 extra bhp

[hoff]

keep us updated if that is something you decide to do. It will be interesting to follow how it goes and costs.

 

Edit: rob may have a point. Still its always good to see how diferant approaches turn out as future refferance.

[Jake]

this is my list of things to do in the winter!!

 

bore my block to 3.2(if possible)

Pistons for the block!!

fuel regulator and a diferent air sensor!!

You can't bore the block out to 3100cc let alone 3200.

You can gain some extra capacity by increasing the stroke but it's very expensive (say £5k) and a very poor HP per £ ratio.

 

Why do you want to change the FPR?

[hoff]

im telling you NA-TT. Well priced and you get to keep you're car. But at the end of the day its your money and as ive already said its good to see differant ideas put into place.

[JohnA]

How much of a power increase can be achieved just through changing cams?

'increase' is a bit of a misleading word here.

 

Wild cams will shift power around the rev range.

You may trade 30bhp down low for an extra 20bhp near the redline, that sort of thing.

The trick is to be realistic about how often you'll be using those extra ponies and how often you'll be cursing for losing pulling power down south.

[danny_silva]

well i really dont understand very much about bhp gain!! I just draw engines and components!!

 

Now want i'm saying is want the "big boys" responsable for the spaners

want to do my car!! my boss says its allright do you it after hours!!

i did same torque plates for some companies!! but with NA we have the throtle body on top!! so no space!!

[RobSheffield]

well i really dont understand very much about bhp gain!! I just draw engines and components!!

 

Now want i'm saying is want the "big boys" responsable for the spaners

want to do my car!! my boss says its allright do you it after hours!!

i did same torque plates for some companies!! but with NA we have the throtle body on top!! so no space!!

 

I think that if you are serious and have cash to throw at it you would be better going to a supra specialist that knows what works and what doesnt.

[cowboy bebop]

'increase' is a bit of a misleading word here.

 

Wild cams will shift power around the rev range.

You may trade 30bhp down low for an extra 20bhp near the redline, that sort of thing.

The trick is to be realistic about how often you'll be using those extra ponies and how often you'll be cursing for losing pulling power down south.

 

Generally that is true, however with these particular cams we noted no loss of low end HP/TQ, and a vast increase in HP up top at redline. The test car was a 93 SC300 w/ a 67mm turbo. It's due to the fact that ANY upgrade from the stock cams will yield more performance, and also because our cams are the shizzzzz.

 

Overall I will say that the cams change the entire attitude of the car, making it more fun to drive, much more sporty, and give more HP up top without killing the power down low. If you guys are serious about making more power with your NA or NA-T, PM me.

 

Thanks again,

 

Eric

[RobSheffield]

The test car was a 93 SC300 w/ a 67mm turbo.

 

They are discussing N/A 'performance' here

[cowboy bebop]

They are discussing N/A 'performance' here

 

HAhahahhaha... you know what I mean Rob

 

Eric

[Homer]

Getting back to Neofutures original question: what performance gains can be made with £2000 to spend, as as been suggested, if we're talking drivabilaty here then the money is best spent on suspension and brakes (that'll eat £2000 with ease!).

 

However, what most are referring to is power increase; improving the torque.

 

Earlier this year I tried writing an FAQ for NA tuning but gave up as there was almost no proof of gains available here for specific upgrades (or anywhere else I could find!). The TT was much easier since there is a huge amount of info out there, such as before and after power graphs with various stages of tune.

 

NA Stock

225bhp (the only stock NA's I could find both dyno'd at 220bhp)

 

NA with decat, aftermarket intake

Cost: £300 approx

220bhp (based on numerous dyno results)

 

NA + NOS

50 jet NOS. Drawbacks are it only gives power when you're using NOS, and can be almost uninsurable

Cost: £600 approx

220bhp normal

270bhp NOS

 

NA+ decat & cams

Cost: £700?

???BHP (Lets say an extra 20bhp at the top end, so 240bhp?)

 

NA-Supercharger

Only one fella here has completed this (Shane) so it's a little untested, however it does appear to be to be a relatively cost effective upgrade if it can be proved to work

Cost: £2000 (based on Shane's results)

280bhp???

 

NA-T

Cost: £4000 for a basic setup using the stock drivetrain, though this is not recommended as there are many exmaples of both auto and manual gearboxes failing at this power.

400-450 bhp

 

NA-TT

Direct drivetrain and engine transplant from a TT

Cost: £3000-£3500 for a driect swap (e.g. QSD)

300bhp approx at stock boost

 

NA-TT BPU

As above but with BPU mods

Cost: £800 approx on top of above

420 bhp at 1.25 bar

 

Is that about right?

[Nic]

NA + aftermarket exhaust manifold

When we did a before and after dyno of Loks car, we saw a 7hp increase, however the dyno results weren't really conclusive as his car was down on power to start with for some reason.

 

Before - 191hp

After - 198hp

 

Estimate around 8-10hp gain on a car running stock hp to start with.

[Homer]

NA + aftermarket exhaust manifold

When we did a before and after dyno of Loks car, we saw a 7hp increase, however the dyno results weren't really conclusive as his car was down on power to start with for some reason.

 

Before - 191hp

After - 198hp

 

Estimate around 8-10hp gain on a car running stock hp to start with.

 

Thanks Nic, I didn't realise someone had dyno'd with one of these

 

Was that a rwhp figure? What trans? Cheers.

 

Will try and build this into the FAQ if this post generates some 1st hand feedback and proof of gains

[carl0s]

Last time I checked you couldn't chose when your turbo knackers up.;)

 

What's the obsession with turbos going wrong? Sounds like a cop-out to me. My UK car had done an indicated 105,000 miles and was still on the stock turbos, my Jap car has done 111,000 miles and is also still on the stock turbos. Replacement used pairs go for ~ £200 anyway.

[Scooter]

What's the obsession with turbos going wrong? Sounds like a cop-out to me. My UK car had done an indicated 105,000 miles and was still on the stock turbos, my Jap car has done 111,000 miles and is also still on the stock turbos. Replacement used pairs go for ~ £200 anyway.

 

i agree that they rarely go wrong but they can and when they do its expensive.

 

£200 used turbos are a lottery as to whether they will last there are a few stories of such replacements letting go quickly (ashley).

If you can diy then yes you may be able to repair cheap but most can't and so faced with a high labour bill most will go for rebuild hybrid units to ensure only one high labor bill and not two.

 

Read the tales of woe on here, the unfortunate Sheefa and Mattc, both turbo cars and both down to the tune of many thousands of pounds.

 

For NA's? well one guy recently had a core plug leak and decided to get rid of the whole car, probably lost a grand or two, but could have got a replacement engine for the price of the used TT turbos.

 

I know tt's are reliable but there is a small chance of them turning into a money pit, there is no real chance of this with a NA imo.......

[JohnA]

...The test car was a 93 SC300 w/ a 67mm turbo. ...

Hell yeah, you wouldn't want stock cams with a turbo like this.

Stock cams have to deal with the abnormally high backpressure of the sequential system, starting from very low revs.

 

However we're talking n/a here, where no gain comes without real pain.

[Homer]

To some segree's I agree with you Scott, if you're not able to do the work yourself, it will be an expensive exercise to replace the stock turbo's. A good garage (i.e you know who) will charge around £700 for the job.

 

Read the tales of woe on here, the unfortunate Sheefa and Mattc, both turbo cars and both down to the tune of many thousands of pounds.

 

Bad examples who used well known dodgy traders and/or took bad advice from this very forum. A sad state of affairs and they turned out to be the major losers from it

 

I know tt's are reliable but there is a small chance of them turning into a money pit, there is no real chance of this with a NA imo.......

 

There is always that chance, but provided you have a good car and the mods are done right it should be a very minimal risk. IMO, it's only once boost is raised beyond 1 bar that it starts getting more tricky. I.e. see> bpu

[cowboy bebop]

Hell yeah, you wouldn't want stock cams with a turbo like this.

Stock cams have to deal with the abnormally high backpressure of the sequential system, starting from very low revs.

 

However we're talking n/a here, where no gain comes without real pain.

 

Well, they're available if anyone wants them. If not that's ok too.

 

Thanks again!

 

Eric

[Homer]

Well, they're available if anyone wants them. If not that's ok too.

 

Can you categorically state the rwhp (or better yet torque) increase the cams create over a stock NA? Any dyno plots available?

 

For the rest: So far there is a lot of talk and zero evidence (apart from Nic) of any real gains of mods on the NA's.

 

As mentioned, there is limitless proven info about the TT's, but almost zero so far about the NA's; which is why building this FAQ is proving so damn hard

[cowboy bebop]

Can you categorically state the rwhp (or better yet torque) increase the cams create over a stock NA? Any dyno plots available?

 

Not really since we don't deal with NA's all that much. Unfortunately the NA-T market is ultra small compared to the TT market and the [straight up] NA market is a tiny spec in that already small market. That being said the cams are a fair amount more aggressive than the stock cams. The cams will definitely let the motor breathe at higher rpm.

 

Thanks man,

 

Eric

[Homer]

Thanks Eric for the response, though it's a shame there's no figures to provide.

 

The NA tuning market is very different in UK. They're far, far cheaper and as such very, very few are willing to invest great deals of money in tuning them.

 

The problem is slightly exacerbated in the UK as NA's can be picked up for so few ££££ these days.

 

A local fella picked up one for only £1.2k a couple of months ago, even given the low $/£ rate that’s still feck all for a straight supra