Mike B Posted August 20, 2007 Author Share Posted August 20, 2007 Good write up Mike, we'll have to get together to try vvti vs non-vvti, do you prefer the .68 over the .95? Yes... by miles.. I had a trip down the coast tonight for an after work surf which gave me a 9pm run back down my favorite road - A66 from coast to middlebrough. I really like this setup now. Aside from a lazy 1st and initial 2nd the engine is awesome. Power band is large, and at 4k in 2nd gear the punch out of roundabouts is both instantanious like the 35, usable, and devatstating. I'm getting linear power after 6, no real climb, maybe the .81 would help here, but the throttle response is now very good with the .68, as long as the revs are 4 or more. 3rd gear is on the limit of traction, EGT's are higher than the .95 even with WI I am getting peaks of 800, (afr's in tolerance) but no sign of knock. One of those moments tonight when all the work is worthwhile. Big smile on my face, open dry road, no traffic, dual carriageway punctuated by roundabout after roundabout. Occasional flash from behind in between gears, I love my car! Just have to get the suspension sorted 100% and I will be a happy man. Supra nirvana! i thought it was just a dream ... lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jevansio Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Great stuff Mike, my EGT's are around that too, I wonder if that's a property of the smaller AR'd housing then, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suprafan72 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Yes... by miles.. I had a trip down the coast tonight for an after work surf which gave me a 9pm run back down my favorite road - A66 from coast to middlebrough. I really like this setup now. Aside from a lazy 1st and initial 2nd the engine is awesome. Power band is large, and at 4k in 2nd gear the punch out of roundabouts is both instantanious like the 35, usable, and devatstating. I'm getting linear power after 6, no real climb, maybe the .81 would help here, but the throttle response is now very good with the .68, as long as the revs are 4 or more. 3rd gear is on the limit of traction, EGT's are higher than the .95 even with WI I am getting peaks of 800, (afr's in tolerance) but no sign of knock. One of those moments tonight when all the work is worthwhile. Big smile on my face, open dry road, no traffic, dual carriageway punctuated by roundabout after roundabout. Occasional flash from behind in between gears, I love my car! Just have to get the suspension sorted 100% and I will be a happy man. Supra nirvana! i thought it was just a dream ... lol Where is your EGT Probe?? Mine is in the turbo?? is it post or pre? And what do u reckon to WI.. My personal oponion is its great... No ignition retard needed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B Posted August 21, 2007 Author Share Posted August 21, 2007 My probe is in the dp directly downstream of the turbine, I have an urge to run it to no 6 runner though.. My manifold and downpipe is completely heatwrapped. I do think that the smaller ar's are hotter.. stands to reason; squeezing more gas through a sharper angles. WI.. you know I expected it to pull 150 degrees off the EGT's, at least. I recon it does bog all to the temps, but I get no sign of det at all, and I use a fair bit of advance. I used a fair bit of water/meth too, the tank lost about 1/4 of it's load.. and I may be talking rubbish but I'd swear the fuel comsumption was better under full load...? but I could be talking rubbish! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suprafan72 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 My probe is in the dp directly downstream of the turbine, I have an urge to run it to no 6 runner though.. My manifold and downpipe is completely heatwrapped. I do think that the smaller ar's are hotter.. stands to reason; squeezing more gas through a sharper angles. WI.. you know I expected it to pull 150 degrees off the EGT's, at least. I recon it does bog all to the temps, but I get no sign of det at all, and I use a fair bit of advance. I used a fair bit of water/meth too, the tank lost about 1/4 of it's load.. and I may be talking rubbish but I'd swear the fuel comsumption was better under full load...? but I could be talking rubbish! Interesting.. I've tested WOT with out W/I and with... And noticed a good 75 deg difference at 1.4 bar..... and i may be talking rubbish with this as well.. the boost seems more aggressive with W/I than without..... I have got piles of advance on my setup as well.. Ive even had something listening to the top and bottom of my engine with a stethascope to listen for knock... Not a whisper with WI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 I may be talking rubbish but I'd swear the fuel comsumption was better under full load...? but I could be talking rubbish! If I recall correctly the WI with meths would make the mixture richer therefore your ECU if its automapping will pull fuel to compensate so then your MPG would be affected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suprafan72 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 If I recall correctly the WI with meths would make the mixture richer therefore your ECU if its automapping will pull fuel to compensate so then your MPG would be affected. Theres so many different oponions on that.. what's right and what is wrong is anybody's guess. In theory your right...but i've an open mind.. personally i just use water... seems good enough to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B Posted August 21, 2007 Author Share Posted August 21, 2007 If I recall correctly the WI with meths would make the mixture richer therefore your ECU if its automapping will pull fuel to compensate so then your MPG would be affected. It's what I was thinking too. Maybe pulling fuel then leans the mix out to the same temperature as before; hence I notice no difference. No sign of knock though. Perhaps I would get more by using just water; no change in the mix just a lower overall temperature. I will try just h20 next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous brain Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Hmm another interesting developement to this thread. I am looking to instal WI next week on my car. Is it just your ECU that learns as it goes or does the AEM also have this function (aimed mainly at Wez) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 The AEM has two main fuel trim/tune options, neither of which I use. #1 Fuel trimming (O2 feedback), this trims the mapped injector duty to try and achieve the desired AFR which is set in a target table, much like a standard fuel table, this does not update the actual map which should be as close as possible before attempting this feature. This also has various configuration options on when it is active etc. #2 Automapping, this uses the same AFR target map but actually updates the data in the fuel map, in theory it should be good as each time it trims and gets closer the smaller the amount of trim is required. I tried this once on an earlier firmware release and it didnt work to well for me and I havent bothered with it since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous brain Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 So if I stick on the WI I won't experience any "learning" and will benefit from the temp drops associated with said WI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan.G Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 If I recall correctly the WI with meths would make the mixture richer therefore your ECU if its automapping will pull fuel to compensate so then your MPG would be affected. Correct meths make the afr readings richer as you are adding more fuel. Meth is fuel. If a car is mapped to 11.5 and then you run say a 50/50 mixture of water and meth your find your afr now in the low 10's. You can then pull abit of fuel out and add more igntion timing to benefit more gain but there is a risk as if the pump fails....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 So if I stick on the WI I won't experience any "learning" and will benefit from the temp drops associated with said WI? As long as O2 feedback hasnt been turned on. Do you have a wideband wired into the AEM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous brain Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 I have a wideband I would have to ask dan if it was wired into the AEM ecu. That said from memory I can get AFR readings from the plug in laptop to ecu lead. I don't know if its taking that from the stock O2 sensor though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Correct meths make the afr readings richer as you are adding more fuel. Meth is fuel. If a car is mapped to 11.5 and then you run say a 50/50 mixture of water and meth your find your afr now in the low 10's. Thats interesting as I have just compared some older datalogs from before my water/meth install and I am not seeing that. The only difference between the datalogs is the water/meth, the older ones show inlet temps upto 52deg with a steady AFR around 11.7 With the water/meth my inlet temps are steady 32deg but the AFRs are now between 12.6 to 12.8 and in some places 12.3 If I get chance this week I will try and run without water/meth and log the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B Posted August 22, 2007 Author Share Posted August 22, 2007 interesting...!? I would consider tuning afr's to run with WI and meth very dangerous were my FBW throttle and detsensors not linked. It's a pretty sensitive system that did activate in the past, so I'm happy with this config. My system is therefore pretty rubbish at seeing what is going on as it's self learning. It won't stand still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suprafan72 Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Correct meths make the afr readings richer as you are adding more fuel. Meth is fuel. If a car is mapped to 11.5 and then you run say a 50/50 mixture of water and meth your find your afr now in the low 10's. You can then pull abit of fuel out and add more igntion timing to benefit more gain but there is a risk as if the pump fails....... Isnt there a risk of fecked up WOT mapping if you run out of WI/Meth too?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan.G Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Isnt there a risk of fecked up WOT mapping if you run out of WI/Meth too?? Yup Thats interesting as I have just compared some older datalogs from before my water/meth install and I am not seeing that. The only difference between the datalogs is the water/meth, the older ones show inlet temps upto 52deg with a steady AFR around 11.7 With the water/meth my inlet temps are steady 32deg but the AFRs are now between 12.6 to 12.8 and in some places 12.3 If I get chance this week I will try and run without water/meth and log the results It all depends on what ratios of water and meth you are running to how the afr are affect if your running a 50/50 mixture in my experience will always read richer as your adding more fuel (meth) but i like too keep the afr good without WI and then tweak meth/water mixtures until its how i like it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous brain Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 That sounds very sensible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 I am using a 50/50 mix but only with a 0.7mm jet, maybe this is why I am not seeing it go richer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan.G Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Water injection setup can be abit of a pain to get right and the new aqua mist kit have certainly helped the process due to the ability to being able to change flow rate etc in the car. I have found on alot of the cars that i have mapped with water injection that when its just pure dist water or say water +20% meth the afr tend to read lean and this i feel is due to the buring on the h20 releasing more oxygen content. But i find when using a 50:50 mixture or more meth that the afr always read richer as this is due to the extra fuel (meth) being injected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Water injection setup can be abit of a pain to get right and the new aqua mist kit have certainly helped the process due to the ability to being able to change flow rate etc in the car. I have found on alot of the cars that i have mapped with water injection that when its just pure dist water or say water +20% meth the afr tend to read lean and this i feel is due to the buring on the h20 releasing more oxygen content. But i find when using a 50:50 mixture or more meth that the afr always read richer as this is due to the extra fuel (meth) being injected. I have to admit that my 50/50 mixing is not an exact science, I normally chuck some water in and then top it up with meths by eye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan.G Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Does your car feel noticable quicker now Wez with the cooler intake charges? as i feel it is a good mod for a supra due to there problem with engine bay radiant heat and heatsoaking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Does your car feel noticable quicker now Wez with the cooler intake charges? as i feel it is a good mod for a supra due to there problem with engine bay radiant heat and heatsoaking Not sure really, it needs proving on the dyno which I hope to do when I remap for the new cams. I will remap with the water injection disabled and then when happy I will have a comparison between stock and JUN 264 cams and then we will introduce the WI and see how it affects the power/torque without changing anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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