BPU with cam's and EMU

[tucky40]

thanks dandan sounds good. was thinking of getting the emanage first to get the car running as efficiently as possible and gaining some power....maybe cams further down the line. then i can look at injectors or a fpr if required.

[dandan]

Sounds good.

 

Get a wideband setup too or else the EManage is relatively useless unless you're on a rolling road.

[Tricky-Ricky]

If your contemplating mapping your own EMU then i would definitely recommend the innovate LM-1 wideband, as it has two configurable lambda outputs that can simulate both narrow and wideband outputs,plus you have the added advantage of some brilliant data logging software, that you can mimic the EMU map points with.

You can use one of the outputs from the LM-1 lambda sim to feed the autotune feature of the EMU, (but personally i think its only good for a course map)

The EMU will be able to show a log of the AFR sim (but that is only as good as your settings) but more importantly it can show you the logged injector duty cycle, which is what you need to know in order to know if you are pushing the injectors to the max;)

[tucky40]

excellent.........am i right in thinking the 'phr map 2 ecu' will do the job of a wideband sensor too:

 

''The MAP-ECU2 replaces voltage and frequency based air flow meters with Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) based load sensing (Speed Density). Voltage types include the spring door flap and hot wire types used by numerous manufactures. Frequency based units are commonly known as Karman Vortex Frequency air flow meter as used by Mitsubishi™ or DSM vehicles and some other manufacturers.''

 

''This MAP-ECU2 combines the functionality of other manufacturers Air Flow Converters and Vane to Pressure Converters into the one unit, plus more''

[carl0s]

excellent.........am i right in thinking the 'phr map 2 ecu' will do the job of a wideband sensor too:

 

''The MAP-ECU2 replaces voltage and frequency based air flow meters with Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) based load sensing (Speed Density). Voltage types include the spring door flap and hot wire types used by numerous manufactures. Frequency based units are commonly known as Karman Vortex Frequency air flow meter as used by Mitsubishi™ or DSM vehicles and some other manufacturers.''

 

''This MAP-ECU2 combines the functionality of other manufacturers Air Flow Converters and Vane to Pressure Converters into the one unit, plus more''

 

I don't think so (but I'm non-technical remember ). Whether it's MAP, MAF, whatever, it's still a shitty narrowband sensor.

[tucky40]

it has a built in 3.5 bar MAP sensor, is this considered narrowband??

[Ian C]

Aha I think you've got your spanners in a twist

 

MAP sensor is Manifold Absolute Pressure, it measures the air going into the engine so the ECU can add the right amount of fuel. The Wideband sensor is the other end, plumbed into the exhaust and it sniffs the exhaust gas to detect how much of the fuel that went in got burnt or not, therefore how "rich" you are running.

 

-Ian

[carl0s]

I knew I was talking bollocks, but I still knew that I was right that you were wrong, if you see what I mean

 

I knew the wideband was a replacement for a narrowband lamba sensor, and I knew that that meant I was talking bollocks about the wideband being related to the MAP/MAF, but hey ho

[tucky40]

ok i see......So do u have any opinions on the map 2 ecu vs emu Ian?

[Sheefa]

I've heard a lot of great things about the EMU. I'd stick with that for your needs Tucky, but what do I know, I'm not particularly technically minded.

 

My question is, why choose an Innovative Wideband over the AEM option? Don't you have to self-calibrate the Innovative, even though it does seem to have a slightly better response rate. There was a shootout recently for the best pick of the mix.

 

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2007/06/WidebandShootout/index.php

 

My advice, again not very technical but I've learnt a bit, stick with the EMU, add the 550's to be on the safe side and trim the fuelling to suit your needs, get an Innovative/AEM WB in their to keep and eye on things (maybe an EGT gauge too) and go from there mate. Of course, the larger cams should be included in this list if you have them!

[Tricky-Ricky]

Just been having a look at the Map2 and although it sound good on paper, and OK it has launch control (which i see as a bit of a gimmick) slightly bigger maps, boost control (cant find it in the software?) i guess inbuilt MAP is good, what i would like to know is just how it accomplishes closed loop o2 adjustment?

But on the whole i still think EMU is just as capable.

[Tricky-Ricky]

 

My question is, why choose an Innovative Wideband over the AEM option? Don't you have to self-calibrate the Innovative, even though it does seem to have a slightly better response rate. There was a shootout recently for the best pick of the mix.

 

With the Innovate,you only need to program the two extra simulated outputs, not the wideband itself, calibrating the sensor consists of pressing a button one every 3 to 6 months, which is far better that some that don't seem to need calibrating at all:blink:

The other BIG advantage the Innovate has is the datalogging side of things, it is invaluable when mapping piggybacks, stand alone etc;)

[Sheefa]

With the Innovate,you only need to program the two extra simulated outputs, not the wideband itself, calibrating the sensor consists of pressing a button one every 3 to 6 months, which is far better that some that don't seem to need calibrating at all:blink:

 

Ah, that's cleared it up. Again there was a mixture of views on this but the above shootout really says it all. Great bit of kit.

[Ian C]

The other BIG advantage the Innovate has is the datalogging side of things, it is invaluable when mapping piggybacks, stand alone etc;)

 

The datalogging functionality isn't required with the E-Manages as you can plumb the 5v output into the E-Manage and datalog that directly instead. In fact it's much better that way as you don't have to sync up two seperate logs.

 

Innovative and AEM are horses for courses. This has been discussed before and my take on them is here:

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showpost.php?p=1479307&postcount=5

 

-Ian

[Ian C]

ok i see......So do u have any opinions on the map 2 ecu vs emu Ian?

 

I've not used the Map2 ECU so can't really comment on it from experience but going in its spec list vs the EMU I'd say it loses out to the EMU more than it gains.

 

-Ian

[Tricky-Ricky]

The datalogging functionality isn't required with the E-Manages as you can plumb the 5v output into the E-Manage and datalog that directly instead. In fact it's much better that way as you don't have to sync up two seperate logs.

 

Innovative and AEM are horses for courses. This has been discussed before and my take on them is here:

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showpost.php?p=1479307&postcount=5

 

-Ian

 

 

IMO the datalogging on the EMU isn't all that, and as i said the logged AFR plot is only as good as the users ability to get the inputs and output spot on, and so far i still can't get the EMU AFR plot to match the Innovate (which may be my fault, but i have spent a lot of time trying to get it right) and i would rather trust the Innovate;)

Plus the EMU certainly doesn't come close to the logging ability's of the Innovate, and its quite easy to create a log that corresponds to the EMU maps;)

[tucky40]

wow thanks guys, alot to think about!! gonna take some time to read over this and make sure i understand fully before making a decision on which way to go........its a shame that more people arent more familiar with the map 2 ecu cause it would be an interesting alternative to the emu.

[Private Pile]

Yeah Tucky, about time you started spending some money on POWER you tart!!! Hehee!

[tDR]

Just been having a look at the Map2 and although it sound good on paper, and OK it has launch control (which i see as a bit of a gimmick) slightly bigger maps, boost control (cant find it in the software?) i guess inbuilt MAP is good, what i would like to know is just how it accomplishes closed loop o2 adjustment?

But on the whole i still think EMU is just as capable.

 

Boost control is achieved through a small config table in the ECU configuration menu (edit>ecu configuration) Ricky. The values you tweak are much like what you'd set on a decent boost controller with self learning function. You need to purchase the optional GM boost solenoid and hook up cable to go with it though, about £30 extra from memory. I've not used this functionality yet as don't see much point 'til I go single.

 

Closed loop o2 adjustment functionality is really targetted at OBDII cars which stay closed loop a lot more. It is achieved by feeding the stock o2 signal into the MAP2 and then using it to drive the stock ECU o2 input line. The MAP2 has a seperate fuelling table for closed loop adjustment called 'o2 adjust' with the same resolution as the normal fuel table, letting you modify the signal as you see fit.

 

The other nice extras you get with MAP2 is progressive NOS control, launch control as you say which also gives flat shifting, along with a bunch of extra inputs and switched outputs for whatever you can come up with - water injection control, that kind of thing. It's also very nice it has an inbuilt 3.5bar MAP sensor allowing you to control fuelling for up to 2.5bar boost straight out of the box rather than having to buy (extra £££'s) and fanny about with external aftermarket MAP sensors / configuration files for those.

 

As far as EMB / EMU and MAP / MAP2 ECU's go, the EM seems the norm in the UK and I guess you go with what you / your target tuner is most comfortable with.

 

As someone who wanted to have a go himself, I looked to proven results and it's hard not to notice what the Americans had achieved drag times wise with the original MAP ECU so with the impressive additional functionality of the MAP2 ECU that was the way to go for me. I must say I'm very happy with it and find it straight forward and intuitive to map. As mentioned above though you need a decent wideband if you're considering doing any mapping yourself. I use an Innovate LC-1 with XD-16 dash mounted digital gauge with output hooked up to my MAP2 ECU - no problems logging this signal inside the MAP2 software EXACTLY the same as it shows on the gauge. Mine is entirely road mapped and I attribute my 11 second runs and 121MPH terminal speeds at TOTB in large to the MAP2 ECU - my car has no aftermarket cams and runs stock j-spec ceramic turbos at 1.1bar. As with **ANY** ECU though it's only as good as it's mapping.

 

In response to the thread title, personally I don't see any large gain coming from aftermarket cams without going single. The two guys above me (I've reached no.3) in the drag leaderboard for stock / stock based twins both have aftermarket cams but also have hybrid turbos - I'd say it's the hybrid turbos that are the main advantage with them being able to run as much as 1.7bar boost (as Justin said at TOTB this year) but even then I'm not far away so wouldn't say there's any massive gain to be had with hybrids. If you really wanna go faster than stock twins you're best off going single IMO.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[Tricky-Ricky]

Thanks for the info, I'm not actually considering one myself, i think I'd rather stick with the devil i know;)

Apart from LC and the ability's to run a boost solenoid and inbuilt MAP, the only other thing i see as a real plus is the closed loop mapping function, although surely if i was to tweak my narrow band sim from the LM-1 a bit more, i could achieve the same thing, everything else the EMU can match, whats the pricing like?

[tDR]

Here's the blurb / feature list:

 

The MAP-ECU2 combines the functionality of the MAP-ECU with full Timing control, OEM Air/Fuel Ratio Adjust, Auxiliary Injector control and Electronic Boost Control (requires the purchase of the Powerhouse Racing MAP ECU2 Boost Solenoid Kit on this page).

It also has many on-board functions that usually require the purchase of secondary piggyback controllers such as:

 

 

Launch Control (2-step Rev Limiter)

Fuel Cut Defender (a.k.a. Boost Cut Controller)

Speed Cut Defender

Speed Adjust

Nitrous Control

RPM Switch

Pressure Switch

 

Price is £300

 

Not sure you could achieve the same thing with the Innovate software as I've not mucked about with it, only used it to program the output I was feeding my MAP2 - do you cut the stock wire from the stock o2 sensor and feed the ECU end of that wire with the LM-1 output? That's only real way of achieving closed loop adjustment, and even then you need mapping functionality to have decent resolution of pressure vs. RPM, this is why MAP2 ECU has an additional table for this feature with the same resolution.

 

From my point of view I don't see any practical reason why I would have an EMU over a MAP2, given the success I've had with the MAP2. Or any other ECU for that matter, if I go single turbo it should allow me to retain stock driveability and idle and be able to trim large injectors / make any necessary further timing adjustments. Usually takes a hell of a lot of time and effort to achieve that with a full blown standalone ECU.

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[tucky40]

tDR I really like the sounds of the map 2 ecu......the only thing putting me off is the lack of tunners used to this device and therefore tunning would be down to myself. Hopefully i could ask for your advice if it comes to this.

 

Also Where can i get a map ecu 2 for £300, cant see it this cheap only £350 with mvp. then id also need to buy a wiring harness which is another £200.

 

The emu with harness is $430 as far as i can see.

[tDR]

tDR I really like the sounds of the map 2 ecu......the only thing putting me off is the lack of tunners used to this device and therefore tunning would be down to myself. Hopefully i could ask for your advice if it comes to this.

 

Also Where can i get a map ecu 2 for £300, cant see it this cheap only £350 with mvp. then id also need to buy a wiring harness which is another £200.

 

The emu with harness is $430 as far as i can see.

 

Yeah sure I'm happy to give advice / pointers. If you're not confident in having a go yourself though and there are EMU tuners in your area (is IanC near you?) then that's the route you should go. As I said earlier, any of these devices are only as good as their mapping!

 

To have a go yourself means you need a minimum of a wideband o2 sensor / gauge that has at least 1 configurable output to hook up to the MAP2 for AFR logging and you will need a set of det cans to listen for detonation whilst tuning - this is very important. These can be made yourself out of some tubing, a Y piece, a bit of copper pipe (which you flatten at one end, drill a hole in and attach to the engine block) and some ear defenders

 

Price wise I was going on $695 dollars on mvp's website and doing a very rough currency conversion. Yes it's a very good idea to buy a replica fields harness as well but that's the same for any piggyback to save hacking up your Toyota loom.

 

If buying an EMU speak to IanC as there's a bunch of harnesses for it you may or may not need and whether you need a MAP sensor to go with it depends on your future goals - what boost level?

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.

[tucky40]

Was thinking of running 1.2 bar tDR. Maybe it would just be a safer bet to get the emu as i cant f';@ck anthing up this way.......i think it'll be a bit cheaper aswell once all the various bits are taken into account.

[tDR]

You'll no doubt have no problems going EMU especially if you get IanC to map it - it's a very capable piggyback and his car is testament to that and his mapping ability.

 

My posts were just really to highlight that yeah, MAP2 ECU is a good bit of kit and an alternative option. I like it but I'd probably like the EMU too if I'd gone that way

 

Cheers,

 

Brian.