FMIC Better?

[Tricky-Ricky]

I run UK hybrids in TTC mode so not only do i get slow spool up due to TTC i also get slower spool up due to hybrids! so running high duty cycle on the boost controller is not going to make much difference, so i am wondering if going to a FMIC would help? anyone have any experience of this? or can tell me if this would make a noticeable difference?

[DamanC]

What IC are you running at the moment?

[dandan]

I changed from a side mount to a front mount and I think it's fair to say I now notice slightly earlier pick up from the engine when coming on boost. In reality I suspect this may be slightly misleading as it's more than likely due to better cooling giving a couple of lbft gain pretty much from 3000rpm upwards - this kind of makes it feel like it picks up quicker.

 

In theory if the FMIC and associated pipework is less restrictive than your OEM stuff then you may feel some benefit. I need to measure the pressure drop across my setup now and compare it to before. I'll post up the results when I get a chance..

 

Edit: SOmeone will probably come along and try to tell you the extra volume in the FMIC will cause more lag. If you do the maths on airflow it's quite clear this is not the case in reality. I certainly noticed no lag type problems, as I said - if anything things did get slightly better.

[mikeyb10supra]

I changed from a side mount to a front mount and I think it's fair to say I now notice slightly earlier pick up from the engine when coming on boost. In reality I suspect this may be slightly misleading as it's more than likely due to better cooling giving a couple of lbft gain pretty much from 3000rpm upwards - this kind of makes it feel like it picks up quicker.

 

In theory if the FMIC and associated pipework is less restrictive than your OEM stuff then you may feel some benefit. I need to measure the pressure drop across my setup now and compare it to before. I'll post up the results when I get a chance..

 

Edit: SOmeone will probably come along and try to tell you the extra volume in the FMIC will cause more lag. If you do the maths on airflow it's quite clear this is not the case in reality. I certainly noticed no lag type problems, as I said - if anything things did get slightly better.

 

 

I would agree with the above, only thing I will add it make sure you properly duct it when fitting, otherwise a lot of air flow is wasted and intercooler efficiency will be lost

[dandan]

Yes - forgot to add mine is 100% ducted - top, bottom and sides (sides are very tricky with an OEM bumper and it's still a bit "ghetto" at the moment )

[_Rob_]

I noticed spool up coming in slightly later than with the stock SMIC. T2 seemed to come online at 3800rpm, then after changing to the FMIC it seemed come online 4k rpm.

 

Its not a massive diffeence but was noticeable.

[JohnA]

I wouldn't expect any spoolup difference from the change of volume.

Perhaps there might be *some* difference in hot summer weather if there is increased heatsoak from the FMIC setup though.

 

Don't forget that the SMIC discharges the heated air well outside the engine bay, and it doesn't interfere with the coolant rad airflow either.

[Clarkey]

I wouldn't expect any spoolup difference from the change of volume.

Perhaps there might be *some* difference in hot summer weather if there is increased heatsoak from the FMIC setup though.

 

Don't forget that the SMIC discharges the heated air well outside the engine bay, and it doesn't interfere with the coolant rad airflow either.

 

I think I would agree with the spool up you mentioned. I would expect charge temps to be lower with a FMIC (Like the Greddy 3row) so thus have denser air going into the intake.

 

This might seem obvious but the stock SMIC -I think- is obviously fully capable on stock turbos. But when you start fitting Hybrids or even a single - I personally think you need to upgrade the IC. If FMIC's weren't necessary at levels of modification - then the Jap GT racing like the JUN - wouldn't bother fitting their car with FMIC.

[Wez]

An uprated SMIC is fine for small singles as they do not generate as much heat as hybrids or stock turbos thats are out of there effeciency range.

[Clarkey]

An uprated SMIC is fine for small singles as they do not generate as much heat as hybrids or stock turbos thats are out of there effeciency range.

 

I didn't say they wouldn't work. But the FMIC will provide you with more power.

When I got my car dynoed at SRR. Even Charlie said to me - that you'd make more power with a FMIC.

[Tricky-Ricky]

I suppose in the end its down to the benefits of a FMIC as regards spool up and ultimate power as opposed to the reduction in cooling to the rad as i also have air con, so i don't really want to have to replace the rad for a bigger/thicker one just because i have fitted a FMIC.

[JohnA]

...If FMIC's weren't necessary at levels of modification - then the Jap GT racing like the JUN - wouldn't bother fitting their car with FMIC.

 

If I were building a racing supra then yes, I'd definately go for a massive FMIC, among others.

 

I would also ditch the aircon, seats and most of the car except the shell (and even that if the rules allowed me to have a tube frame with a fibreglass skin)

[Clarkey]

LOL! For sure John. The JUN Supra was an extreme example. But that car has 1 thing in common to Tricky-Ricky and Wez's.

 

They're both running non-standard turbo's! Definately, there are pro's & con's to a FMIC. But if you have single blower on there .. why would you want a SMIC to be it's bottle-neck ?

[JohnA]

The SMIC won't necessarily be a bottleneck.

On a good large-turbo setup there is not much more heat to be extracted compared to a stock pair running at the edge of destruction.

 

If I were to build a large-hp street supra (with full leather, aircon etc) I would probably use a modified SMIC (with larger passages to cope with the extra flow) and add in series a *chargecooler*, replacing the long pipe underneath the car connecting the SMIC with the throttle body.

Pressure drop would be kept to a minimum, no hot air would enter the engine bay, no extra airflow restrictions in front of the coolant rad and chargetemps would be kept much tighter with no extra rads in front (the chargecooler rad would probably be on the passenger side and it wouldn't be taxed heavily anyway)

 

For a 1/4 mile race supra I wouldn't use an intercooler at all, water/meth injection would be my best friend.

[Clarkey]

So, a T61 / Hybrid TT road car would make more or less power with a SMIC than a FMIC ?

[JohnA]

On the dyno, probably the FMIC will have the edge (more mass to delay heatsoak and open bonnet to get rid of engine bay heat)

 

On the road the SMIC will probably have the edge overall (assuming it is in decent condition inside out and the front wheel arches are not full of crud)

 

Typically FMICs are new and clean while SMICs are old, tired, corroded and oily inside. Not a fair comparison.

 

The FMIC dumps all the heat in front of the other rads, along with the engine bay. Not very elegant, is it?

Plus it often demands for the nice OEM front ducting to be junked/compromised. Even less elegant technically.

 

Note:

If you have good, functional bonnet vents then things could get better for the FMIC. Especially an EVO-type vent would increase it's efficiency considerably without affecting the rest of the bay too much.

 

The SMIC doesn't need such a vent at the back because it already has the wheelarch (when in motion!) That's why it can make up for the lack of size;)

[Clarkey]

On the road the SMIC will probably have the edge

 

Disagree there.

 

But it's fair & valid point on the condition of the SMIC. In my experience, when I fitted my FMIC on my T61 my duty cycle shot way up from 80 odd % to 100% running the same boost. It was worn though.

 

One way of testing would be - fit a brand new SMIC to your car. And blat it up and down the motorway for say 30 minutes. Monitor the charge temps & test it for heatsoak.

 

Then fit a FMIC (probably with a new bumper) ... and then do the same.

 

But horses for courses as they say.

[JohnA]

When I got my supra the SMIC was in a lamentable state. Even the cheapest of eBay FMICs would be an improvement (sort of...)

That was not a fault of the design, or even the notion of SMIC. It was simply the result of dirt, salt and weathering.

 

For £50 I got a near-new replacement from a late VVTi without compromising any of the stock ducting and without mucking about with the engine-bay airflow.

Charge temps dropped by 8C (at stock boost) with absolutely no side-effects anywhere else. Coolant temps the same, underbonnet temps the same, aircon performance the same, alternator temps the same, active spoiler still operational.

Not bad.

[Clarkey]

Not bad.

 

Agreed not bad. But back on topic - I'd wager the new FMIC would beat the new SMIC.

[JohnA]

Are we talking one single pull from cold, or the last of several full-boost runs?

On the road or on a dyno?

Open bonnet or shut?

Winter or summer?

 

Any of the above could shift the balance a bit.

[Clarkey]

Are we talking one single pull from cold, or the last of several full-boost runs?

On the road or on a dyno?

Open bonnet or shut?

Winter or summer?

 

Any of the above could shift the balance a bit.

 

Several long boost runs. As I said - fit a brand new SMIC to your car. And do a loooong blat up and down the motorway. Then do the same with FMIC same test.

 

Either winter or summer. Providing that both tests are done on the same day and quite close to one another. Now, for sure you could argue that the ambient temperature has changed since you tested the FMIC. And yes, that is a valid point.

 

However, to do any test - I think you'd need to make some assumptions ... otherwise it wouldn't be feasible TO DO the test in the first place because there are too many variables constantly changing. You could say ... "But what about fuel ?" "What about change in weather ?" "What about change in traffic ?"

[Terminator]

I don't know if this will help but the RB engine we are running in my son's 200sx has an ebay front mount. It has some very simple ducting so not completely sealed. On one of our 420-450 bhp WOT runs we saw an ambient temp of 18degrees C, and a charge temp, measured just after the throttle body, of 26 degrees.

 

We thought this was pretty impressive given the under bonnet temperatures crated during a couple of miles of very heavy footed mapping and repeated runs over a 40 minute period. When we parked up the rad cap was venting rapidly as the engine was so hot, we had to run the double fans for 15 minutes.

[JohnA]

...We thought this was pretty impressive given the under bonnet temperatures crated during a couple of miles of very heavy footed mapping and repeated runs over a 40 minute period. When we parked up the rad cap was venting rapidly as the engine was so hot, we had to run the double fans for 15 minutes.

 

Exactly, most of that heat extracted from the charge air was dumped onto everything else behind;)

So charge temps are not the whole story. You have to see the overall picture.

 

Otherwise it is right hand giveth, left hand taketh away

 

The supra's SMIC setup is smart in the sense that it has more external airflow than it appears at first glance and it doesn't contaminate the engine bay with extra heat *at all*.

 

Size isn't everything.

More like Location, location, location lol...

[Clarkey]

Exactly, most of that heat extracted from the charge air was dumped onto everything else behind;)

So charge temps are not the whole story. You have to see the overall picture.

 

Otherwise it is right hand giveth, left hand taketh away

 

I see your point. The SMIC neatly gets rid of the nasty hot air. But if your going to have a hybrids or singles running higher boost .. I think it's a trade off. I cannot accept the fact that ... "Let's put some Hybrids in or a Single and the SMIC would be up to the job."

 

But you could use bonnet vents to feed the hot air out and cold air in ? And an uprated rad fan ?

[Tricky-Ricky]

Think I'll have to relocate my thermocouples again to try and get to the bottom of this, i have an Apexi filter with my own heat shield and a std air feed, which when i put it on in colder weather, made a fair difference, but I'm not so sure now, i think in order to get some decent temps into the filter in the first place would require a bonnet scoop:tongue: over the filter, i would if i fitted a FMIC use the space vacated by the SMIC to force cold air into the filter, but therein lies the crux of my dilemma;)