tooquicktostop Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 I thought I would start a new thread for those who wanted to see the engine damage from my mapping session last week, the last thread had gone a little off topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooquicktostop Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share Posted June 30, 2007 more ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Ohh nasty! was it due to a dodgy injector? or just slightly ambitious fuelling/timing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D8MOA Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 whoops!! thats not good mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Ohh nasty! was it due to a dodgy injector? or just slightly ambitious fuelling/timing? Or running too much boost during mapping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil tt Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Do you know what the main cause was, doesn't look too good:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooquicktostop Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share Posted June 30, 2007 Do you know what the main cause was, doesn't look too good:( This was the post from the mapper on the original thread, so not his fault I've been notified by at least 10people today of this thread. And did not imagine to find what I did when I read the 9 pages as it is now! I feel that a couple of points need to be made by myself in relation to the start of this thread. Dean Tracey's Supra failing on the dyno. 1st The engine did not "Blow up". I tend to stop well before this point. No flames, no holes, no rattles etc It lost the capacity to maintain cylinder pressure on cylinder number 2. This is most likely caused by either piston or ring failure. The result is high crankcase pressure i.e. breathing. I have borescoped the engine and can see 6 pistons still in their bores. 2nd (Alex this one is for you) The car was being mapped to Deans instructions. "safe boost and Nitrous" I was aiming for 1.5bar on the high setting. To achieve this safe mapping slightly higher boost has to be visited to allow for comprehensive mapping. The piston or ring failed whilst momentarily at 1.75bar during mapping. Nitrous was not being used at the time but had been used earlier to set-up. 3rd I have not been responsible for any of the servicing, maintenance, or modifying of Deans car or infact any of the cars being discussed. I can only map with what I am given in these cases. 4th The car was producing 580bhp and 730Nm without Nitrous at 1.5bar. 5th Have had the pleasure of knowing Dean for 2 years now and think he truely is a top guy. I also know of the heartache and financial burden that he has gone through modifying his cars. I was very much looking for forward to finally finishing his car for him yesterday and did not enjoy making the bad news call to him. 6th Can't help but take it personally when people question my mapping competence and integrety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 So the mapping of up to 1.75bar probably didnt help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Or running too much boost during mapping? Thats was my point, i have heard of people running much more boost than that safely, so if the engine was built with the correct compression, then it should be fine with all else being within the right spec, which is why i asked if there was a problem with an injector, or not enough fuel, or to much timing advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Get someone who knows their stuff to have a look at the block and head. If you're lucky you may get away with a .5mm overbore, max you can go is 1mm. The head looks like it may be salvageable, although difficult to tell from the pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Wasn't this a stock bottom end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil tt Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 This was the post from the mapper on the original thread, so not his fault I've been notified by at least 10people today of this thread. And did not imagine to find what I did when I read the 9 pages as it is now! I feel that a couple of points need to be made by myself in relation to the start of this thread. Dean Tracey's Supra failing on the dyno. 1st The engine did not "Blow up". I tend to stop well before this point. No flames, no holes, no rattles etc It lost the capacity to maintain cylinder pressure on cylinder number 2. This is most likely caused by either piston or ring failure. The result is high crankcase pressure i.e. breathing. I have borescoped the engine and can see 6 pistons still in their bores. 2nd (Alex this one is for you) The car was being mapped to Deans instructions. "safe boost and Nitrous" I was aiming for 1.5bar on the high setting. To achieve this safe mapping slightly higher boost has to be visited to allow for comprehensive mapping. The piston or ring failed whilst momentarily at 1.75bar during mapping. Nitrous was not being used at the time but had been used earlier to set-up. 3rd I have not been responsible for any of the servicing, maintenance, or modifying of Deans car or infact any of the cars being discussed. I can only map with what I am given in these cases. 4th The car was producing 580bhp and 730Nm without Nitrous at 1.5bar. 5th Have had the pleasure of knowing Dean for 2 years now and think he truely is a top guy. I also know of the heartache and financial burden that he has gone through modifying his cars. I was very much looking for forward to finally finishing his car for him yesterday and did not enjoy making the bad news call to him. 6th Can't help but take it personally when people question my mapping competence and integrety. I did't think I was questioning your ability and competence, I was only intrested in what happened, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 So the mapping of up to 1.75bar probably didnt help. I'm not question any person's skills or anything.. Was the 1.75bar on normal fuel (97 Octane) with or without meth/water injection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooquicktostop Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share Posted June 30, 2007 I did't think I was questioning your ability and competence, I was only intrested in what happened, This was as I said a quote from the mapper not me I would like to know what happened to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooquicktostop Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share Posted June 30, 2007 I'm not question any person's skills or anything.. Was the 1.75bar on normal fuel (97 Octane) with or without meth/water injection? 97 ron optimax fuel when mapped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class One Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 1.75 bar on pump fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Further to my last post, i really should read through the whole post! this is in reference to the original one, which i didn't read all of:innocent: Anyway, what i didn't realise was the the engine in question was bog std:blink: mapping a big/er turbo with far more airflow to 1.5 BAR on std pistons and bottom end is IMO pushing your luck! and doing so knowing that there is a problem with boost spiking due to manifold design is just foolhardy (sorry!) I would not have pushed it over 1.4 BAR without knowing that it some fail safes where in place, and in this instance WI would have been a must IMO There is an awful lot of blame being chucked about on the other thread, which i suppose is understandable, i;m sorry but IMO it needs to be shared equally by a few people, as there are points all along the way that should have been addressed! Its always a shame when this happens, but we all run these risks when modifying our cars;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bromy Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Has any compensation been mentioned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooquicktostop Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share Posted June 30, 2007 Further to my last post, i really should read through the whole post! this is i reference to the original one, which i didn't read all of:innocent: Anyway, what i didn't realise was the the engine in question was bog std:blink: mapping a a big/er turbo with far more airflow to 1.5 BAR on std pistons and bottom end is IMO pushing your luck! and doing so knowing that there is a problem with boost spiking due to manifold design is just foolhardy (sorry!) I would not have pushed it over 1.4 BAR without knowing that it some fail safes where in place, and in this instance WI would have been a must IMO There is an awful lot of blame being chucked about on the other thread, which i suppose is understandable, i;m sorry but IMO it needs to be shared equally by a few people, as there are points all along the way that should have been addressed! Its always a shame when this happens, but we all run these risks when modifying our cars;) Point taken and I will learn by this for sure, but as quoted my the mapper I asked for a 'safe map' 1.5 bar high bost (for the pod on the Sunday and odd blast only) and 1.2 bar normal boost setting, I never expected the car to be taken to 1.75bar but the mapper tells me as you can see from his post that this is the norm in mapping, so there is my learning curve A lot of balme was chucked around (not by me infact) and some fell at TF for no reason, they have never modded the engine, only done head work in the past Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooquicktostop Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share Posted June 30, 2007 Has any compensation been mentioned? The mapper takes no responsibility I have asked and was told these things can happen, he mentioned a possible fueling problem in the last conversation but I have not expanded on this, I would rather he commented for himself than put words in this mouth but he does not come on the forum very often so that my be difficult I have to get on and sort this out, the pictures we not intended to start the fingers of blame again as I dont see that going anywhere from the conversations I have had Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 1.75 bar on pump fuel. Yeah, exactly... couldn't find the blink icon... 1.75bar on standard 97 is pushing luck a little too far for anyone's comfort..hence the reason for asking about water/meth injection. Not even sure I would push 1.75 on 99 superunleaded either... I would look for some more advice on this, as I would say that is WAY past comfort levels for standard fuel/det levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 I understand how you must feel, as if my engine let go i would be in the position of not knowing if i had the funds to sort it! I map my own car, and if i wanted a boost limit i would map to that, and extrapolate fuelling and timing for over boost conditions, and also make sure that it had a boost cut enabled, also as said water injection is invaluable when running higher boost/airflow;) but then i am no professional mapper. I hope you can get it sorted for a reasonable budget:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustGav Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 The mapper takes no responsibility I have asked and was told these things can happen If you asked for 1.5bar, then that is what you should have got, I would suggest perhaps seeking alternative advice regarding the mapper's responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 If you asked for 1.5bar, then that is what you should have got, I would suggest perhaps seeking alternative advice regarding the mapper's responsibility. Exactly, why would the mapper map to 1.75bar when you only asked for a maximum of 1.5bar Especially on 97ron fuel. I am no expert but this does seem a little strange to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Dan, for some unknown reason feels that he should map upto .25bar over what's requested to make sure that if you ever have a boost spike it's covered. This is not in my, or anyone elses, opinion what's recommended and I'm quite frankly appaulled. He should have; Set a FuelCut/Boost Cut at 1.6bar. Mapped to 1.5bar Extrapolated out a rich point to cover between 1.5-1.6bar. He should have not mapped beyond 1.5bar at any stage especially on a hot dyno! Dean, looks like he owes you money IMO. 1 new stock bottom end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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