Supercharger fitted-- updated 28-07-07

[markssupra]

Looking good Shane, good work.

[Shane]

This looks really good and I wish you luck in getting it running smooth.

 

Would this also pave the way for that crazy idea of people running big turbos but having a supercharger at the low revs?

 

There was a guy on here some time ago in Belgium or Holland I think who was going along these lines. Don't know if he ever finished it though. Bear in mind I have mounted mine where the turbo normally sits so you would really struggle to get both in. But, you relocate the PAS res and/or get rid of the ac pump and stick something on that side.

 

I guess the possibilities are pretty much endless, determined mainly by cash and time.

[rick001]

"At the moment the limiting factor for power is the transmision and the fact I intend to use stock compression ratio, won't be running any more than about 7 psi, but who knows for the future"

Well done mate truely outstanding work, 7psi and more, what does this mean in laymans terms as i dont know what this means in mph/bhp??

 

Again, well done, and post up each stage you go through

 

rick

[dangerous brain]

There was a guy on here some time ago in Belgium or Holland I think who was going along these lines. Don't know if he ever finished it though. Bear in mind I have mounted mine where the turbo normally sits so you would really struggle to get both in. But, you relocate the PAS res and/or get rid of the ac pump and stick something on that side.

 

I guess the possibilities are pretty much endless, determined mainly by cash and time.

 

That was jagman he ran out of enthusiasm for the project due to encountering nothing but difficulties and not a lot of help (supercharging in the 2JZ world is usually greeted with the same old line "why bother when you can easily turbo and get more power").

 

 

"At the moment the limiting factor for power is the transmision and the fact I intend to use stock compression ratio, won't be running any more than about 7 psi, but who knows for the future"

Well done mate truely outstanding work, 7psi and more, what does this mean in laymans terms as i dont know what this means in mph/bhp??

 

Again, well done, and post up each stage you go through

 

rick

 

It still amazes me that people keep thinking that a top power figure is the be all and end all of engine tuning For most people on the road a good torque curve is significantly more advantageous and will see bigger driving gains than huge power ever will. The more area you have under that torque line at lower revs the quicker the car will feel and move. How many people here spend the majority of their time in revs above 4000?

 

I agree with the water injection suggestion, and also a bit of time and effort getting cold air in from outside will pay dividends as well, I am guessing that the UK bonnet scoop is about the right place to bring some air in on top of the manifold. Also you could consider heat blanket wrapping the initial outlet parts of you exhaust manifold to try and keep as much heat away from that area as possible.

 

They use the SAFC family stateside alot for single turbo conversions which I always thought a bit strange especially as Ian has said they have no positive pressure processing abilities (I assume the mapper has to bodge the signals even more to make this work properly?). People are using the MAP ecu as a cheaper alternative to emanage how good that is I don't know. There are enough F-cons about now for next to nowt (I have one currently on loan you could have for pennies if you can find a friendly mapper to unlock it for you)

[Shane]

That was jagman he ran out of enthusiasm for the project due to encountering nothing but difficulties and not a lot of help (supercharging in the 2JZ world is usually greeted with the same old line "why bother when you can easily turbo and get more power").

 

 

 

 

It still amazes me that people keep thinking that a top power figure is the be all and end all of engine tuning For most people on the road a good torque curve is significantly more advantageous and will see bigger driving gains than huge power ever will. The more area you have under that torque line at lower revs the quicker the car will feel and move. How many people here spend the majority of their time in revs above 4000?

 

I agree with the water injection suggestion, and also a bit of time and effort getting cold air in from outside will pay dividends as well, I am guessing that the UK bonnet scoop is about the right place to bring some air in on top of the manifold. Also you could consider heat blanket wrapping the initial outlet parts of you exhaust manifold to try and keep as much heat away from that area as possible.

 

They use the SAFC family stateside alot for single turbo conversions which I always thought a bit strange especially as Ian has said they have no positive pressure processing abilities (I assume the mapper has to bodge the signals even more to make this work properly?). People are using the MAP ecu as a cheaper alternative to emanage how good that is I don't know. There are enough F-cons about now for next to nowt (I have one currently on loan you could have for pennies if you can find a friendly mapper to unlock it for you)

 

 

PM'd

[Shane]

"At the moment the limiting factor for power is the transmision and the fact I intend to use stock compression ratio, won't be running any more than about 7 psi, but who knows for the future"

Well done mate truely outstanding work, 7psi and more, what does this mean in laymans terms as i dont know what this means in mph/bhp??

 

Again, well done, and post up each stage you go through

 

rick

Ta,

 

Initially I am looking for anything substantial over stock NA, 275/300 rwhp would be a nice target point for the first round of mods.

[Thorin]

That was jagman

 

Arnaut was doing a twin-charged project, jagman was just looking at supercharging I believe.

[dangerous brain]

No jagman was trying to run a turbo and supercharger chap. Didn't know arnout was also trying it. I may pop over and see him soon

[rick001]

It still amazes me that people keep thinking that a top power figure is the be all and end all of engine tuning

 

The question was one of gaining knowledge for those of us who do not know what psi in terms of power means as were N/A etc

[Ian C]

They use the SAFC family stateside alot for single turbo conversions which I always thought a bit strange especially as Ian has said they have no positive pressure processing abilities (I assume the mapper has to bodge the signals even more to make this work properly?). People are using the MAP ecu as a cheaper alternative to emanage how good that is I don't know. There are enough F-cons about now for next to nowt (I have one currently on loan you could have for pennies if you can find a friendly mapper to unlock it for you)

 

Agreed, anything with a positive pressure ability is going to be able to do the job. SAFC, I think not. It *can* run an engine at +7psi boost, but in order to do so it won't be running it right anywhere else

 

MAP ECU if I recall correctly can't do timing but that is irrelevant on a dizzy I guess. Although having said that the E-Manage series seems to think it can control timing on a distributor system if it's electronic - no idea how good that's going to be or how it does it though, but it might be worth looking in to?

 

The MAP ECU also doesn't control injectors directly, but in this application I can't see that being a problem at all as you aren't working around a MAP sensor that is running out of range or fighting a complex sequential system. In fact it would simplify the wiring

 

-Ian

[Shane]

Agreed, anything with a positive pressure ability is going to be able to do the job. SAFC, I think not. It *can* run an engine at +7psi boost, but in order to do so it won't be running it right anywhere else

 

MAP ECU if I recall correctly can't do timing but that is irrelevant on a dizzy I guess. Although having said that the E-Manage series seems to think it can control timing on a distributor system if it's electronic - no idea how good that's going to be or how it does it though, but it might be worth looking in to?

 

The MAP ECU also doesn't control injectors directly, but in this application I can't see that being a problem at all as you aren't working around a MAP sensor that is running out of range or fighting a complex sequential system. In fact it would simplify the wiring

 

-Ian

 

 

Ian thanks for this info. If I was to use a MAP sensor that would give a meaningful reading with positive boost would the SAFC2 be an option then? Just saying in a pm to DB that initially I would like to get it up and running at low boost using the least amount of add ons and expense. Once I am happy that it is going to work and be reliable, then I will procceed onto the next stage would would almost certainly be a Mapecu or emanage. Little reluctant at this stage to keep dishing out until I know this is all going to come together.

[Chris Wilson]

It's a catch 22 situation, it won't work and be reliable UNTIL you put a proper ecu on it, so you need to bite the bullet and do it right 1st time, with no sneaking about "off boost" until the jobs properly finished.

[Shane]

It's a catch 22 situation, it won't work and be reliable UNTIL you put a proper ecu on it, so you need to bite the bullet and do it right 1st time, with no sneaking about "off boost" until the jobs properly finished.

 

I promise that I will try not to sneak about too much.

 

FOR SALE: One SAFC2, no longer required it seems.

[Soonto_HAS_soop]

Although having said that the E-Manage series seems to think it can control timing on a distributor system if it's electronic - no idea how good that's going to be or how it does it though, but it might be worth looking in to?

 

It can be done, as lots of the newer dizzy run vehicles with ECUs still have a single wire going to the ECU to allow for the ignition to be retarded as standard. You tend to find that these cars have a larger plate on the end of the rotor arm to allow for the signal to be delayed briefly.

 

Plus I fitted one to my brothers Cav turbo that runs a dizzy, the ignition is controlled through what Vauxhall call an ignition amplifier via the ECU. Works prety well, although it basically is only able to retard.

[Shane]

It can be done, as lots of the newer dizzy run vehicles with ECUs still have a single wire going to the ECU to allow for the ignition to be retarded as standard. You tend to find that these cars have a larger plate on the end of the rotor arm to allow for the signal to be delayed briefly.

 

Plus I fitted one to my brothers Cav turbo that runs a dizzy, the ignition is controlled through what Vauxhall call an ignition amplifier via the ECU. Works prety well, although it basically is only able to retard.

 

Well the more I find out about this the more I am sure that I am going to have to buy a Emanage or possibly a Mapecu. CW said in another thread that I should be putting in somehting that gives me timing control, Ian C. thinks the Emanage would suit my application well and now you confirm that I can dial in a bit of retard. Seems this is the way to go, after all I would be a bit like Ken Clarke in the 80s otherwise eh? Many of the guys in the states who have gone NA-T seem to stick with SAFC and stock ECU and seem quite happy so long as the boost is kept relatively low and this was what steered me along this path, that and cost anyhow. So anyone have a emanage set up for a really good price? Can PX a really nice SAFC2 towards it;)

 

Seriously though, thanks to everyone so far who has given me advice with this project, and am very glad that my efforts and post so far has attracted so much attention, cheers.

[dangerous brain]

I don't actually know what capabilities the Fcon unit I have are. Its an older unit is all I know. I think they still had timing and injector control though??

[Nic]

So anyone have a emanage set up for a really good price?

 

If buying new, I would suggest (and I'm sure Ian would agree) to go for the Emanage Ultimate instead. It's less than £100 difference for the full setup and offers much more mapping options.

 

If you would like prices for the full setup just let me know.

[Soonto_HAS_soop]

I don't actually know what capabilities the Fcon unit I have are. Its an older unit is all I know. I think they still had timing and injector control though??

 

Yes it does, plus it also monitors the knock and multiple other features. It is possibly slightly higher speced than the EMU (at a gues, never actually looked into them, just seem the units), but it is such a bitch to do anything with so no one is really interested in it anymore.

[bromy]

Ta,

 

Initially I am looking for anything substantial over stock NA, 275/300 rwhp would be a nice target point for the first round of mods.

 

You should easily make this figure, mine made 283rwhp at just 5psi using the safc, the emanage was then fitted and Ian mapped it to 0.8bar. Go for the emanage ultimate as Nic said as this can control much larger injectors if so required.

[dangerous brain]

Ah yes but if we can get this fcon unlocked then he has a freebie ecu to start working with. Also its plumbed into a fields harness already so realistically it only needs pin swaps to adjust from TT ecu setup to NA ecu setup. No cutting required. All is then required is a decent mapper that can handle an unlocked Fcon. I think I may know one of those.

 

At the end of the day this project is very much in the interest of the UK supra community. To start with the yanks have dominated the high power market. Its something new and dare I say it an in your face up your bum we did it modification. There is alot of resistance to this mod everywhere you look (thats why I quit on it) but just as much interest in a plug and play application. If I had the time and money I have no doubt I could easily produce a full bolt on supercharger kit for a stock NA supe. Problem always is the NA-T kits. They are getting cheaper and cheaper by the day (but you really do get what you pay for here and a proper NA-T kit should set you back the same as a proper big single kit). Reliability is however still questionable on an NA-T. Likewise is other component longevity.

 

 

Again I will say this. The stock na power of 230 bhp is yet again just a peak power figure. Having owned both vehicles long term my observations are this. The NA is a highly tuned engine designed to extract as much power from an NA engine as possible. This engine has its power band around and about 4000 rpm plus. The TT version has a couple of turbos to help out and in stock form from what I can gather also starts to put its power down in a big way around 4000 rpm (the TT starts its boost way before that but is playing power catchup til about 4k TO 4.5K). Before the 4k marker the NA can and will hold its own with the TT as its compression ratio puts it ahead until the TT starts to put maybe 0.2 bar of positive pressure on so IMHO up to 4k-4.5K rpm both cars are on a par.

Its at this point the TT starts to make its mark,

 

Now if you were to add to the initial advantage the NA has, positive induction pressure from the offset (normally aspirated engines suffer badly at low rpms from having to try and suck air in to keep going) then you would start to close the advantage gap the TT has. Add to that the fact that now the NA;s peak power is going to be closer to the TT's than before and the whole shooting match gets very very close.

 

 

Now introduce real world driving not drag racing or track racing and you will see a more positive forced air induction system application being the way to the future

[Shane]

havn't made the progress I was expecting, crap weather, working away, bird moaning, chickens sick, chest infection, teenage son being a teenager (but thinking he is 27) have all played their part. BUT, at last we have the inlet coupling finished, my lad dropped over today. Havn't tried it on yet but it was made to a mock up that fitted , so if it is the same size/angles etc it should be ok.

 

 

 

The original bypass valve from the ford set up has been cut off and should be back to me on Monday welded to the new inlet pipe. So hopefully this will be the last of the metal work taken care of. Also have a set of MK3 440cc injectors on the way. So getting a bit closer.

[Trig]

looking good, cant wait to see what happens

[Konrad]

Any update Shane?

[kieren1234]

Any updates on this yet??? Would love to see it finished.

[garethr]

[thread=122042]"Supercharger finally spinning" thread[/thread]