Lewis Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 This is inspired by the telly last night..... I am a white male, 26 years old. I have a number of black, asian and gay friends and one with a physical disability (bear with me). The different treatment of us all in group situations has always interested me and to a certain extent I have never really understood it. The thing that gets me is this....... If I were black or asian I would have a support group If I were disabled I would have a rights movement If I were gay I would have a pride march If I were welsh I would have devolution As a young, white, English male, if I decided to promote my race, age or pride for my country there is probably little doubt that I would be considered a member of the right-wing. I have no rascist thoughts whatsoever, no feelings of contempt for homosexuals and no 'feeling sorry' for the disabled. I hope I consider my thoughts and what I say carefully to not be patronising and not treat any of my friends any differently from the rest. How do we show our solidarity and pride without being labelled as a fascist?! Then we get into the "minority" debate, ethnic monorities may need support in an unfamiliar land but TBH a gay white ginger will probably need an equal amount of support but why do average white males not need the same emotional or financial support as anyone else? I find it very difficult to treat everybody the same when society, councils, government and businesses treat everybody so differently. Surely that can only breed contempt? your thoughts.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Although I kind of agree with what you say - I think the supports group / rights movements etc. exist because there was / is discrimination against those people. As a white healthy hetrosexual male, I rarely find I'm discriminated against, don't need a rights movement and hence they don't really exist - except for specific issues (e.g. fathers rights to see their kids etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted June 26, 2007 Author Share Posted June 26, 2007 Although I kind of agree with what you say - I think the supports group / rights movements etc. exist because there was / is discrimination against those people. As a white healthy hetrosexual male, I rarely find I'm discriminated against, don't need a rights movement and hence they don't really exist - except for specific issues (e.g. fathers rights to see their kids etc.). So I don't think I am saying that there should be, just that if there was then it would probably be percieved as a racist thing rather than a group meeting to improve things?! I have no desire to be touchy feely with a load of other blokes I am not saying that there should/could be anything, it's an observation more than anything. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorin Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I agree with Lewis /vbb/images/smilies/bbcode_shock.gif In the police force there is a separate Black Police association and a separate one for Women.... White males don't, and if they did it would be classed as racist no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHanky Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I agree with Lewis /vbb/images/smilies/bbcode_shock.gif In the police force there is a separate Black Police association and a separate one for Women.... White males don't, and if they did it would be classed as racist no doubt. Not forgetting that you would be sexist as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 We just need to reclaim the flags, the Union Jack and the St. Georges Cross. It was an interesting programme and I felt very uncomfortable when the white guy was asking Brighton Council if he could stand outside waving a Union Jack, and I thought it's a real tragedy that any mention of our national flags is viewed as extreme right wing fascism. It's certainly no shameful thing for any American to have a Stars and Stripes flag in their garden, but here it only seems to be retired generals in country houses that have them, or if one pops up on a council house outside of a football tournament, everyone immediately thinks "racist" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprasteve Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 to me it feels like the minorities have more rights than the majorities - which again results in discrimination against the majorities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class One Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I agree with Lewis /vbb/images/smilies/bbcode_shock.gif In the police force there is a separate Black Police association and a separate one for Women.... White males don't, and if they did it would be classed as racist no doubt. There are far more then that now. There are staff associations for Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, Transexuals, Irish, Muslims, Cypriots, Italian etc etc etc . But I'm at a loss as to why there are all these seperate associations. The Police Federation is the only staff association recognised by the Police Act, and the only association that can negotiate with the Government with regards to pay and conditions etc. All the others purely exist to pay lip service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 So I don't think I am saying that there should be, just that if there was then it would probably be percieved as a racist thing rather than a group meeting to improve things?! I have no desire to be touchy feely with a load of other blokes I am not saying that there should/could be anything, it's an observation more than anything. Lewis But that was kind of my point. Because of discrimination, these groups exist. Without discrimination, what reason do they have to exist? What would the purpose of a white hetrosexual able bodied group be for? It would almost be discriminatory by it's very nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millsy Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Maybe he's making the point that white hetrosexual able bodied males can sometimes lose out on jobs etc to people from minorities etc because of equal rights. So if all things are meant to be equal and the two people can do the job just as well as each other is it right that he may lose out to a minority just because the company need/want to have a certain percentage of their staff from minority groups? Best person should get the job regardless. Although maybe that's descriminating against the people that aren't any good. I'm not sure if this happens or not but there's certainly scope for it to in modern Britain. Political correctness etc is all a big mess built up over years of guilt etc. Common sense should be the benchmark for how people act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 i agree with millsy,pc has gone racist,in thr army and poss the same in the emergency services,they have to recruit ethnic people to make there numbers up no matter the cost,and yeah some may be good at what they do but that statement alone is racist. but if we think about it,is it really a minority now? being pc is c**p coz we have to watch what we say and do while the "minority" is about which often offends them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprasteve Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Maybe he's making the point that white hetrosexual able bodied males can sometimes lose out on jobs etc to people from minorities etc because of equal rights. So if all things are meant to be equal and the two people can do the job just as well as each other is it right that he may lose out to a minority just because the company need/want to have a certain percentage of their staff from minority groups? Best person should get the job regardless. Although maybe that's descriminating against the people that aren't any good. I'm not sure if this happens or not but there's certainly scope for it to in modern Britain. Political correctness etc is all a big mess built up over years of guilt etc. Common sense should be the benchmark for how people act. i agree with millsy,pc has gone racist,in thr army and poss the same in the emergency services,they have to recruit ethnic people to make there numbers up no matter the cost,and yeah some may be good at what they do but that statement alone is racist. but if we think about it,is it really a minority now? being pc is c**p coz we have to watch what we say and do while the "minority" is about which often offends them this is exactly my point ..... to me it feels like the minorities have more rights than the majorities - which again results in discrimination against the majorities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 to me it feels like the minorities have more rights than the majorities - which again results in discrimination against the majorities this is exactly my point ..... i agree with you too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted June 26, 2007 Author Share Posted June 26, 2007 I must say I have expected (and dreaded) this becoming a race / religion rant but everybody has taken it in the spirit it was meant (you honky jesus lovers ). I just really struggle to see how positive descrimination, negative descrimination, minority support groups, religious support groups, monitored ethnic diversity and the disability promotion do ANYTHING other than support a sub-standard employee base and/or create ill-will with the 'majority'. In reality, adding all of the minorities together far outweighs the 'white majority' and therefore as an us/them I am less important than the rest. The program obviously fulfilled it's role as it has made people think a bit more about the whole situation. The one thing as a tax payer that does annoy me is positive descrimination in public sectors (particularly the emergency services). I think it promotes sub-standard workers simply because of race. I wouldfar rather an excellent police officer (white, black, asian, american - OK maybe just the first 3) turned up at my door and I felt confident that they got their job because of their excellent skills and dedication than a black officer who (still excellent) may have got their role through their skin colour. I admit that this isn't an area I know a lot about (positive discrimination in public sectors) and so I am prepared to be challenged on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I wouldfar rather an excellent police officer (white, black, asian, american - OK maybe just the first 3) turned up at my door and I felt confident that they got their job because of their excellent skills and dedication than a black officer who (still excellent) may have got their role through their skin colour. I admit that this isn't an area I know a lot about (positive discrimination in public sectors) and so I am prepared to be challenged on it. i agree with you there,they may be able to do the job but id rather the person was selected for his skills rather than his skin colour my mate went to join the fire brigade and got told they wasnt recruiting at the mo but a week later there was 20 new recruits and not one was white, apparently they had been pulled up for not trying to recruit ethnic minorities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted June 26, 2007 Author Share Posted June 26, 2007 i agree with you there,they may be able to do the job but id rather the person was selected for his skills rather than his skin colour my mate went to join the fire brigade and got told they wasnt recruiting at the mo but a week later there was 20 new recruits and not one was white, apparently they had been pulled up for not trying to recruit ethnic minorities I am really suprised at that and I think it is just such a shame. Mainly from the point of view that I have no doubts whatsoever that there are excellent black, asian, gay, green fire officers etc but they may not be getting the recognition and kudos that they so richly deserve because some people may question how/why they got the job. To recruit based on race is no different (IMO) to NOT recruit because of someones race. I just think that as a nation we are asking for revolts and problems when we steer towards discrimination of any sort (positive or otherwise). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous brain Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I agreed with what was being said right up until the whole these people are stealing our jobs line started. Its not particularly directly stated as that but thats pretty much implied. Problem is and always will be that different people do not live well with each other. When we were all the same colour and no-one travelled anywhere we went around trying to steal our next door neighbours sh*t and burn down their houses. When that got a bit tedious we wandered off to the next village and tried to burn down their houses instead. Anyone new came into our little area we instantly disliked them and set up defences against them. That is just human nature, and as much as you think modernism has trained that out just look at any disaster and watch humanity in its rawest form come to the forefront even in, in fact especially in the perceived capitol of ideal wealth and prosperity. I agree its a whole pain in the ass that I have to be mindfull not to call absolute bloaters fat bastards within hearing range. Likewise if I say the word n*gger within half a mile of a black person I would feel within myself like some sort of racist Git. I get all clammy uppy around people with disabilities that are visible as I don't want to offend by staring. People with stammers really f*ck me off as I feel as bad as they do that they can't talk properly and even worse that I can't f*cking finish what they are clearly trying to say for fear of upsetting them. It is not my fault I am a white male, with the use of my entire body and my entire brain (ok maybe not all of it). Yes its wrong for extremists (and there were alot of them across the ages putting someone in their place) to ruin peoples lives. But surely is it not also wrong for the general populace to be forced into a Ps and Qs way of life. Especially when the racist/fatist/sexist etc f*ckers are still just as racist/fatist/sexist as they'll ever be. Society and conditioning is responsible for this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprasteve Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 its when people use it to their advantage that pisses me off. Often i see so called disable drivers park there £80k merc on a double yellow line in the middle of a very busy high street, get out the car and stroll of down to the shops with no troubles whats so ever and away with it cos they have a blue badge in the window. may be thats just me and i'm being well out of order !? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pot Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 The one that gets me is the Tax Credits thing for being married, having kids, I'm not wanting to have kids at the moment, and I'm not married... All I get is 25% off my council tax for being a single occupant, surely I use 50% less resources than if there was 2 people living here?... Not what you mentioned above, but one that I guess could go on the list?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous brain Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 The one that gets me is the Tax Credits thing for being married, having kids, I'm not wanting to have kids at the moment, and I'm not married... All I get is 25% off my council tax for being a single occupant, surely I use 50% less resources than if there was 2 people living here?... Not what you mentioned above, but one that I guess could go on the list?... Thats one reason why I have never and will never claim a single penny from the state for my kids or myself. I can look after myself and will do. It amazes me though the hypocrisy in this world. A good friend of mine whinges on about spongers of society. But he claims a fair old whack of tax credits for his kids whilst living in a half a million pound house, two investment properties and a business premises worth over a million. He's a very very good tax accountant. Problem is people, without them the world would be a much friendlier but much more boring place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 its when people use it to their advantage that pisses me off. Often i see so called disable drivers park there £80k merc on a double yellow line in the middle of a very busy high street, get out the car and stroll of down to the shops with no troubles whats so ever and away with it cos they have a blue badge in the window. may be thats just me and i'm being well out of order !? I'm failing to see the significance of the cost of the car. Disabled people are not allowed to be wealthy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous brain Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I'm failing to see the significance of the cost of the car. Disabled people are not allowed to be wealthy? Nah they are not allowed to park up and gaily run across the road like theres absolutely nothing wrong with them and they are in fact not really disabled is what I think he is getting at. Car could be a 35 year old mini on its last legs principle would be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Nah they are not allowed to park up and gaily run across the road like theres absolutely nothing wrong with them and they are in fact not really disabled is what I think he is getting at. Car could be a 35 year old mini on its last legs principle would be the same. Disabled does not mean you have problems with your legs. And if he was not making a point about the price, the "£80K merc" was mentioned for what purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous brain Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Disabled does not mean you have problems with your legs. And if he was not making a point about the price, the "£80K merc" was mentioned for what purpose? OK I am going to agree to disagree here. For what its worth though I also have witnessed many a disabled badge holder waltz around supermarkets like its a wee holiday. For me disabled parking badge holders should hold said badge because they have difficulties with being able to get from a further away parking space or cannot get out of the car in too narrow a space etc, not because they have a slight itch in their right toe and can't be arsed to walk an extra 20 yards. These idiots and the idiots that gave the undeserved the badge in the first place are the very people responsible for demeaning the actual value of that badge. So again we find ourselves back with being ruled by idiots that are easily taken in and force upon the majority the rules of the overly well meaning few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 OK I am going to agree to disagree here. For what its worth though I also have witnessed many a disabled badge holder waltz around supermarkets like its a wee holiday. For me disabled parking badge holders should hold said badge because they have difficulties with being able to get from a further away parking space or cannot get out of the car in too narrow a space etc, not because they have a slight itch in their right toe and can't be arsed to walk an extra 20 yards. These idiots and the idiots that gave the undeserved the badge in the first place are the very people responsible for demeaning the actual value of that badge. So again we find ourselves back with being ruled by idiots that are easily taken in and force upon the majority the rules of the overly well meaning few. The vast majority of people I see parking in disabled bays don't have those badges anyway. But I'm sure nobody on this forum does that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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