Alex Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 WASD 4TW! End Of... Matt, you obviously like simple games and simple controls. I do to at times. But I don't like the fact that because a title comes out on multiple formats it's dumbed down to the least capable denominator. A PC based game should be as limited as a console one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 WASD 4TW! whats that stand for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Matt, you obviously like simple games and simple controls. . no not at all. I love a good in depth game, but no matter what i still believe the control interface some be simple and easy to get into. one of my big grips with PC games alot of the time is the lack of same button controls. in different siutations why cant we just use the same keyboard stoke to do different things? yet i've found that each action needs a seperate button no matter where you are or what you are doing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snooze Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I've played computer games for over 25 years now. From the few games that were available on my TRS-80 as a kid up to leading-edge PC games and consoles today. In the last couple of years, my videogames-playing time has dropped to virtually non-existent (apart from Nethack, which is still the best computer game ever!). Me and my mates are playing boardgames instead! Boardgames are the new computer games! Rah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I've played computer games for over 25 years now. From the few games that were available on my TRS-80 as a kid up to leading-edge PC games and consoles today. In the last couple of years, my videogames-playing time has dropped to virtually non-existent. Me and my mates are playing boardgames instead! Boardgames are the new computer games! Rah! mouse trap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snooze Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 mouse trap! lol - not exactly what I meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I think some people are missing the point in arguing for/against joypads vs mice etc - the point is there should be more choice than there is. But it's become big money game, with only a few players, who all err on the side of caution and aim for the lowest common denominator. In fact, for the most part, it's been this way for ages and I don't think all the blame can be put on consoles. Developers don't have free choice, they're funded by publishers. Publishers are basically marketers - and they're more interested in pretty screenshots and buzzwords than actual gameplay. It's simply not a set-up that fosters innovation at all. The most interesting games I can think of have come from developers with other sources of funding (afaik) - Doom/Quake, Rainbow 6, Battlefield, Serious Sam. (I like FPS, so shoot me ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Indeed - EA have taken all the games in it's arsenal and dumbed them down. To make them fit everything. Jack of all trades, master of none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 13, 2007 Author Share Posted June 13, 2007 I think some people are missing the point in arguing for/against joypads vs mice etc - the point is there should be more choice than there is. But it's become big money game, with only a few players, who all err on the side of caution and aim for the lowest common denominator. In fact, for the most part, it's been this way for ages and I don't think all the blame can be put on consoles. Developers don't have free choice, they're funded by publishers. Publishers are basically marketers - and they're more interested in pretty screenshots and buzzwords than actual gameplay. It's simply not a set-up that fosters innovation at all. The most interesting games I can think of have come from developers with other sources of funding (afaik) - Doom/Quake, Rainbow 6, Battlefield, Serious Sam. (I like FPS, so shoot me ) Hurrah! Someone on the same wavelength And that last bit in brackets is damn funny -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daston Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Agree 100% with you This latest "next gen phase" (even though the pc is now in the next next gen phase), is really hurting gameplay look at forza it does all the things that the first GT game did only 8 cars longest pit stop 8 seconds no variable weather endurance races are the same length as a real race still very arcady then you compair it games like the orignal GTR on the PC and it seems in terms of a simulator its miles a head even the original nfs and testdrive we more realistic. To think that when the 360 first appeared MS was thinking of doing their flight sim games on there! I just seems to be a running thing at the moment that the developers think "ahh its only a console game it will be ok" or "this was really popular on the console so it will be good on PC". Look at Halo that was crowned "best xbox fps" main reason being it was the only xbox fps at the time and when it finally hit pc it went straight at the bottom of the review pile and being no better than the original half life. I supose the main reason for the lack in current games is that it is harder for developers to raise the bar now the consoles seem an easier bet as no one has really brought out a game that smashed records on PC and console as the bars are at very different levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 13, 2007 Author Share Posted June 13, 2007 Anyway, there are a lot of good inputs to this I know what you are saying about memorising 102+ keys lol, it was ridiculous (even now me and a friend refer back to Freespace II for comedy value, there was a key mapped to the function "Target Target's Target" ) but at least the option was there if you needed it. Changing the user interface to something more intuitive is indeed progress, I rather liked the command function in Battlefield II that quickly popped up a circle of options to say, and you quickly clicked on the one you wanted - "ammo", "medic", "enemy spotted" etc. OK, one benefit at last from a console, although you might argue that could have happened anyway (but without the lack of inputs on a keypad, I'll admit probably not). However, a lot more games have just been plain stifled due to the lack on inputs available, I'd say a good UI keeping all the functions is rarer than just pulling features. To take the "sequels are bad" argument and to continue with the Need For Speed series as the case study, please not ethat I detailed the progression of the series and in my opinion the fourth in the series was the peak of them. It had pretty much everything gameplay wise you wanted at the time. Compare that to the games now since they have been 'consolised' and the lack of features is shocking. Especially when they did the follow up to Hot Pursuit and removed, I'd say, 95% of the first game. But improved the graphics and sold it on the consoles. So it's not really a sequal issue, it's just a cheapest-to-market issue. Shorter dev time, lop out the stuff consolse can't handle, bish bosh. And the other good point was Xbox talking to PC - yes, it can, now. but that is a prime example though, of making it look like it's innovative to network machines together! Nope, what that is is the consoles clawing their way up to where the PC was 10 years ago in connectivity. But while waiting for consoles to get to that point, PC stuff actually went backwards and lost lots and lots of features to reverse back to where consoles where at - no co-op, no multiple network game modes, nothing that would tax the fixed architecture too much. Oh and WASD is the keys that you use for forwards, left, back, right I'll take on anyone at a 3d shooter with me on mouse and keyboard and them on a joypad, all autoaiming switched off, and cheerfully hand them their arse -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Oh and WASD is the keys that you use for forwards, left, back, right I'll take on anyone at a 3d shooter with me on mouse and keyboard and them on a joypad, all autoaiming switched off, and cheerfully hand them their arse -Ian On another note there, the wii controls out weight the mouse when it comes to aiming! theres nothing better than moving that set up for FPS This will be demonstrated when the new Resident Evil 4 Wii edition comes out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukeyboy2k Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Originally Posted by Ian C You see I can't fathom people who try to play a 1st person shooter with a joypad! It's a disaster. Learning to play a FPS with a joypad can be tricky, but if you persevere it can be most rewarding. It's true many console games utilize auto-aim and a child can blast through them in a few hours - however try playing some of the games on the hardest setting (e.g. Goldeneye, or Perfect Dark) using just auto aim and you won't get very far. Due to lack of ammo and enemy stamina, headshots are order of the day. With practice I was able to get pretty slick at taking out foes instantly with pixel perfect accuracy. This however could throw up a whole new debate about controls; for instance I was very good with certain control options (e.g. "classic PD controls in Perfect Dark zero" and I'm pretty good, however if I try to use "default" (i.e. the same as HALO) and I'm rubbish -can't even get off the first level), so in that respect I'm very old school - maybe because I'm getting on a bit now I find it really hard to learn new control options. I haven't played many PC FPS but of the few I have the aiming seems quite easy (i.e. put the pointer there and fire). I don't know if the same occurs in PC shooters, but one of the best things about some console shooters is the need to have a dead steady hand to hold the cursor in a precise position - makes for great skill and really sorts the men from the boys. Earlier in the thread came a point about Nintendo making the best controllers. Up until the invention of the Xbox360 controller I was in total agreement. The Gamecube had very intuitive buttons to me, the only downfall was the lack of enough shoulder buttons and the "click" if you pressed down the sticks. The Playstations outsold all the other consoles, but I rarely played them - hated the controllers (too small, rubbish buttons I couldn't remember). Originally Posted by Alex Who the f*** cares about those games?? You need the intellect of a knat to play them! Zelda games (and the whole of Nintendo really) have been branded childish etc by many forums. IMO as long as you don't cheat or use strategy guides some of the puzzles in various Zelda games were actually quite difficult. "Ocarina of Time (N64)" is undoubtedly one of my most favourite games ever - a true masterpiece. Games I used to play that I haven't for years are flight sims - I used to love playing them in the early nineties. Very time absorbing, but they never really made it onto the consoles . I didn't have the money to keep upgrading PCs so stopped playing them. I haven't played many of the games listed in this thread (e.g.NFS etc), but I do agree there has been much dumbing down of games for the consoles and quick bucks to be made from kids with the attention span of a goldfish. I research the games I am going to buy and almost always achieve every last thing in the game (a bit anal I know, but I feel like I have to.) This post has taken me about 2 hours to write (bloody work getting in the way), so I've probably missed some points and it seems not to flow, but worth a read anyway I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 For any Mac users, it was announced yesterday at the Mac conference on at the moment, that EA Games and id are going to start releasing all new games in Mac format from now on. Also preview of the new OSX Panther, you can watch the presentation here: http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/d7625zs/event/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 EA Games and id are going to start releasing all new games in Mac format from now on. So all games will ship in white boxes and the controls will be limited to the one click while forcing you to buy sound effects on iTunes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 however try playing some of the games on the hardest setting (e.g. Goldeneye, or Perfect Dark) using just auto aim and you won't get very far. Due to lack of ammo and enemy stamina, headshots are order of the day. Indeed, totally true, and extremely rewarding Zelda games (and the whole of Nintendo really) have been branded childish etc by many forums. IMO as long as you don't cheat or use strategy guides some of the puzzles in various Zelda games were actually quite difficult. I agree, I couldnt care less if Nintendos games are branded childish, the last time i looked it was whether the game was fun and entertaining that mattered, not how much blood you can spill. plus creating childish type games like Mario for instance opens up the world to imagination and creating a materpiece of orginality that doesn have to be graphic to graphic identical to the samey world we live in "Ocarina of Time (N64)" is undoubtedly one of my most favourite games ever - a true masterpiece. The water temple!! jesus christ that was tricky!!! I couldnt care less if Nintendos games are branded childish, the last time i looked it was whether the game was fun and entertaining that mattered, not not much blood you can spill. plus creating childish type game Mario for instance opens up the world to imagination and creating a materpiece of orginality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 But, Do you agree that PC games have been dumbed down to suit consoles?? So that 1 game works on all. If you don't play both then you can't really answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 So all games will ship in white boxes and the controls will be limited to the one click while forcing you to buy sound effects on iTunes? My Mighty Mouse can do 4 clicks and scrolling http://www.apple.com/mightymouse/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 My Mighty Mouse can do 4 clicks and scrolling http://www.apple.com/mightymouse/ Welcome to 2003. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 But, Do you agree that PC games have been dumbed down to suit consoles?? So that 1 game works on all. If you don't play both then you can't really answer. i probably say yes and no, i think you could dig up many an example for each side of the arguement. But anyway, its the single format only games that really matter, theres shed loads of games that only come out on the PC. what about those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I think it's all about the 'wider audience' and PC gaming has and will always be the preserve of the 'hardcore' gamer. Nintendo are obviously putting graphics behind innovation and playability, whereas PS3/Xbox are more into developing network play and adapting PC games - for people who don't usually use/build PC's or set up networks. To say games are being dumbed down is a bit of a misnomer I think, games have been 'adapted' for certain audiences, be them joystick wielding opportunists or mouse using 9 hour PC players.. but 'good' games come out of both camps, and 'good' games work on a number of different mediums - be it mouse, joypad, steering wheel or Wii controller. I think the future of gaming will always start with the PC and be slowly filtered into the console market - this is the way it's always been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Welcome to 2003. Welcome to '97 with your OS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I think the future of gaming will always start with the PC and be slowly filtered into the console market - this is the way it's always been. Thats bull mate, innovation comes from every walk of life. Nintendo are a huge influence for this, you cant argue their contributions. TBH with you. i aint seen anything remotley amazing in the inovation world from the PC since urmm the keyboard?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I remember 'Elite' being one of my all time favourites........ It mixed instant fix gameplay if required (buying narcotics and fighting off the Vipers - or flying to a Fuedal or anarchy state!), with slow finesse parts (docking), strategy (trading and route planning, ship upgrading) and the almost unlimited exploration possible (7 galaxies of 200+ planets and with a galactic hyperdrive costing many weeks of high risk trading)..........fantastic game.......this was over 15 years ago and how many games these days have any really vast playing areas? GTA has recently got a bit larger and can be played more randomly but the in likes of Medal of honour, which i enjoy, you are just too led through the game, there's only one way to go.......... The line graphics and crap sound didn't matter it drew you into the game....... IMO if its the right game for you, you'll play it exclusively so control quirks and the time to learn to not an issue, as you won't be trying to fit in time to play the latest film linked release because you won't care about it! but thats just it, as touched on by others, where's the revenue if people are satisfied with one or a few good games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Thats bull mate, innovation comes from every walk of life. Nintendo are a huge influence for this, you cant argue their contributions Contributions in what way? Nintendo simply copied things like the Atari 2600 console - a platform game is a platform game at the end of the day, as time goes on the graphics get better. Goldeneye seems to be a favourite lump of ammo for you - FPS like many PC games before it. Mario Kart - I had similar games on the Amstrad 464 It's an evolution of the pixel at the end of the day, Nintendo just market it in a friendly way for the masses, Sega were always better anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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