Ian C Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 OK, slightly long one this, but as me and a friend had the discussion and it turned up some interesting hypothesis, I thought I'd throw it open to the bear pit. PC games used to be great, as did your 8bit and 16bit games before it. The general trend for gaming progression was to enhance the experience and add features. Look at say the Lotus Esprit series on the Amiga, where each subsequent edition added cars, game modes, track editors, special effects etc. On the PC you can look at things like Quake II where you got addon packs, co-op multiplayer, multiplayer network gaming, mods, levels etc. Or the Need For Speed series, which is my favourite example in this subject and I'll use it as the case study. NFS1 was simulatory and brilliant. Cutting edge stuff for it's day. NFS2 was too arcadey. They got the balance right with NFS3, and put in the ability to add cars, and do police chases. Networking took off as it could cater for up to 8 players, and you could even mix the cops+runners, or have AI doing one or the other, or just race co-op against AI cars. NFS4-Hot Pursuit was the pinnacle of the series as it built on NFS3 and added car damage effects, more tracks, more vehicles, and a couple more game modes. NFS-Porsche Challenge was a more simulatory affair harking back to NFS1 but with up to date physics and graphics. Then - the NFS series hit the consoles. We got NFS Underground. We lost almost every feature from the game - no network play barring a crippled online fudge, no police chases of any sort, no damage models, no ability to add 3rd party cars, less tracks, it's all at night. Any pretence of realism went out the window and we got a piss poor modification engine. The whole game was completely dumbed down for a fixed platform with a poor controller interface and the user attention span of a gnat. When Hot Pursuit II came out of was astonished to find the multiplayer options amounted to "a straight race on bare roads barring you and your mate", even Pitstop II have AI cars! The NFS series has continued in this fashion. Same tat, no innovation, just a reskin job for each subsequent game. Awful. Look at Quake 4 - no co-op, no network gaming barring deathmatch, no 3rd party map support or mod support to speak of - reason? None of this is supported on consoles. Deus Ex II was destroyed because it was dumbed down for consoles. BF2 had no co-op vs bots. Bio Shock won't get multiplayer co-op as it's being written for consoles. Basically, a lot of taken-for-granted features that we enjoyed on games previously, especially co-operative gaming which is one of the best ways you can ever get close to being sociable on a computer, have been removed in order to beat a game into the right shape for one inflexible hardware platform with probably the worst Human Interface Device ever devised - the joypad. Only now are your XboX 3's starting to get a bit of comms capabilities and suddenly online and network play looks like an innovation, whereas in fact ten years ago we were playing Doom 2 4 player co-op with a 3rd party map pack installed. I wonder how good games would be now if the console hadn't taken off. Features would have been added instead of removed. Games would be deeper and more involved and with more originality, rather than the same tat reskinned year after year. Even the much vaunted Gran Turismo STILL doesn't have a damage model on version 4, and you can do the nurburgring in 5 minutes in a stock Supra, and bolt a massive turbo onto a stock fuel system, and you still have to try and drive with a thumb and a safecracker analogue stick. And that's the pinnacle. The PC had better than that with Motor City Online about 7 years ago. So - discuss. I am aware of the usual "but PCs don't work/crash/cost more" etc etc arguments but this isn't a "is a PC better than a console" argument, it's a hypothesis that "in general, the console market has dragged all gaming down to a level worse than 5+ years ago". I can't see what consoles have actually added to the gaming community -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitesupraboy2 Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I agree, hence why I enjoy the wii. Its not really a games console I play by myself (apart from Zelda). It has no fancy graphics and games. Its kept simple and fun. When I get it out to play with my mates, we get some pizza in, drink and have a laugh watching each of us make a fool of ourselves. The girls join in too and dont feel bored. Thats how gaming should be, everyone having fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 totally disagree. I hate playing game on my PC, always issues that dont pop up with consoles. You just put the game in and play and thats that. Controller interfaces were always the best and still are on Nintendos consoles. nothing worse than using a keyboard or mouse or even worse a PC made controller which is a copy of some consoles which generally doesnt work completely with the game you have. why people actually play games on PC's is beyond me, well except for games like theme park and those types of games where the mouse comes in handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 13, 2007 Author Share Posted June 13, 2007 Actually I think the Wii is going to make matters worse The kind of games that plays take minutes to develop and sell to a much wider audience, so games development will shift towards it and away from in depth and complex products even more than it has now. It's sound business sense, do't get me wrong, but even more bad news for those who like games that aren't like chewing gum. -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 p.s without consoles game like mario, zelda, goldeneye wouldnt have existed nuff said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Most games are now so geared up for online play that you can't just have a laugh with your mates. This has been since consoles gaming took off. EA's policies seem to be the over-riding factor here. Make a game fast, sell it, repackage it, sell it...make a sh1t load and laugh at the punters. They arn't allowed to make games for gamers anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I disagree and feel that console games are generally more fun. I don't have time to invest in serious complicated games you have to invest hours playing before you work out how to play it. There's plenty of in depth good PC games in recent history. Oblivion, WoW, Rainbox Six titles, Half Life etc.etc. Consoles have brought some fantastic titles...Metal Gear Solid on the PS2, Grand Theft Auto, Tomb Raider. Personally I loved NFS:Underground, BurnOut and similar titles. At the end of the day the developers will go for the titles and platform that will make them the most money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 p.s without consoles game like mario, zelda, goldeneye wouldnt have existed nuff said Who the f*** cares about those games?? You need the intellect of a knat to play them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 You are right Ian. Game consoles took almost everything out of real gaming. It is community, which creating game, not game producers. Most of games are that popular because of mods, upgrades, third party maps and cooperation. Look at Counter Strike, look at Custom maps in Warcraft 3, most of tournaments in Q1, Q2 and Q3 are played on third party maps. Not to mention, that in most of strategic games (which makes you to THINK) there is no chance to play using joypad - it's becoming nightmare. Where the heck is mouse and keyboard?! If you take possibility of modyfinig or co-create games from most interested (players), you have to: a) be insane b) create something close to Holy Grail of gaming Consoles are fancy, quick and looks nice on TV screen, but there is not real gaming anymore, not for older generation at least. Besides - PC's do not crash, works fine if configured and installed properly and I belive you can have descent one for price of console anyway PS. Yes almost all games right now are arcade games, nothing to make your brain working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 13, 2007 Author Share Posted June 13, 2007 totally disagree. I hate playing game on my PC, always issues that dont pop up with consoles. You just put the game in and play and thats that. "I am aware of the usual "but PCs don't work/crash/cost more" etc etc arguments but this isn't a "is a PC better than a console" argument" Controller interfaces were always the best and still are on Nintendos consoles. nothing worse than using a keyboard or mouse or even worse a PC made controller which is a copy of some consoles which generally doesnt work completely with the game you have. why people actually play games on PC's is beyond me, well except for games like theme park and those types of games where the mouse comes in handy. You see I can't fathom people who try to play a 1st person shooter with a joypad! It's a disaster. To get around having zero fine control over your crosshair, they implement a great deal of auto-aim and a flat plane of gaming - you never really have to aim up or down. Again, dumbing it down to fit a poor interface device. You say the controller is the best? But they have what, 8 buttons, two sticks, and a 4 way pad at most. Do you realise that means that no game on a console can have more than 12 different functions and some movement controls? Every game is limited to this, every game. PC games were limited to 102+ keys! Look at the Mechwarrior series or Freespace II for a vast amount of functions on display. Now games on the PC get... about 12 functions tops - because they have been dragged down to the limitations of consoles. -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitesupraboy2 Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 goldeneye, was amazing for its time. And brought the 1st person shooter to consoles correctly for first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garetheves Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 My youth revolved around network and internet gaming on my PC so PC games always win for me. I love my consoles, dont get me wrong, they are far easier to play and set up, but id chose a top end gaming PC over any console on the market. Me and mates still play the following games fairly regularly on networked PC's and have done for the past 13 years or so: Doom 1 + 2 - With custom maps. Duke 3d - With custom maps we have made. Original C&C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nicholas Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I guess it comes down to two different types of gamer, ever tried playing quake 1,2,3 or counterstrke on a console... impossible! you NEED a mouse and a keyboard the PC gamer online standard is also extremely high compared to the console world. Consoles are great when you have the boys round, some beer and mario kart on the go! PC's are a proper gaming experience! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 13, 2007 Author Share Posted June 13, 2007 I disagree and feel that console games are generally more fun. I don't have time to invest in serious complicated games you have to invest hours playing before you work out how to play it. Yes, that's a great thing about consoles but don't misunderstand where I'm coming from - you've sort of agreed with me. Most console games are not serious or complicated in order to cater for this demographic, therefore the console is indeed dragging games down in general in order to fulfill this requirement. I'm not saying "right" or "wrong" just "I think that's a fact and personally it disappoints me" There's plenty of in depth good PC games in recent history. Oblivion, WoW, Rainbox Six titles, Half Life etc.etc. Compare Rainbow 6 Las Vegas to Rainbow 6 original. It's more like a cartoon now, and you've got about 12 functions Consoles have brought some fantastic titles...Metal Gear Solid on the PS2, Grand Theft Auto, Tomb Raider. Agreed there will be some good stuff Personally I loved NFS:Underground, BurnOut and similar titles. I actually completed the latest NFS one, can't remember what it was called. It was a blast, lightweight but fun. A bit Matrix II. It's good, until you see it's progenitor (NFS4 - Hot Pursuit) and then you want to cry at the waste. At the end of the day the developers will go for the titles and platform that will make them the most money. Precisely. And why shouldn't they? I agree 100%. But that means they go for the easy option and the deeper games suffer for it - again that's what I'm hypothesising. -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 13, 2007 Author Share Posted June 13, 2007 I guess it comes down to two different types of gamer, ever tried playing quake 1,2,3 or counterstrke on a console... impossible! you NEED a mouse and a keyboard the PC gamer online standard is also extremely high compared to the console world. Consoles are great when you have the boys round, some beer and mario kart on the go! PC's are a proper gaming experience! Yep, but still missing my point It's not a "which is best" argument! It's a "Consoles have caused a retrograde step in the gaming experience" argument. I.e. are most PC games now, compared to a few years back, crippled in some fashion so they work on a console as well? Are they dumbed down to cater for joypads? Are they limited in expansion and networking because consoles cannot support that? -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 You see I can't fathom people who try to play a 1st person shooter with a joypad! It's a disaster. Totally...although I did get into Black successfully on the PS2, only because I really preserved. PC games were limited to 102+ keys! Look at the Mechwarrior series or Freespace II for a vast amount of functions on display. I'd like to think we've moved on since then not having to rely on crappy badly fitting card keyboard overlay templates. Most modern games have a GUI HUD type system with icons to prevent you having to remember all those key functions. Don't forget your typical mouse has 4/5 buttons and a scroll wheel now which are far better to utilised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 It's good, until you see it's progenitor (NFS4 - Hot Pursuit) and then you want to cry at the waste. So is it mainly sequels we have the issues with? A bit like movies - Pirates of the Carribean just got worse with each iteration. They just cash in on the franchise and license - usually with a different developer. Peter Molyneux always had the right idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I almost feel that consoles are for recreational gamers that treat the devices like books and magazines, extract content, enjoy experience, move on to next one. PC games tend to involve the player more, you invest more time, you treat it more like a hobby than a quick game to pass 30 minutes. At least that's my experience, I've been playing 1 PC game almost exclusively for 18 months now, when I had consoles I'd play each game for a few months and then buy the next version of it or a similar alternative. The consoles have opened up the gaming market to a vast audience and in turn this has created a huge revenue stream for developers, as Ian highlighted above with the NFS concept it's very easy to constantly throw out the same thing with slightly different content, you are limited by the console. With the PC games updates tend to appear as bolt-ons to the base game, in addition to this you get the stuff created by end users, I can't recall seeing anything like this on a console. As time goes on the PC / Console gap will get smaller, we are already seeing newer machines that are basically a cut down PC in a fancy plug and play box, I just hope it's consoles turning into high-end PCs rather than PCs dumbing down to play guitar hero or Mario 73. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nicholas Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Yep, but still missing my point It's not a "which is best" argument! It's a "Consoles have caused a retrograde step in the gaming experience" argument. I.e. are most PC games now, compared to a few years back, crippled in some fashion so they work on a console as well? Are they dumbed down to cater for joypads? Are they limited in expansion and networking because consoles cannot support that? -Ian I would have thought with the likes of XBOX live it's increased the networking abilities. You can network an XBOX and a PC together and play against one another but on the expansion side you have a point, a PC can always be upgraded where as consoles don't have that luxury! PC games have also always had the ability to cater for joypads I think if anything we're moving away from joypads in the pc world as there's far more gamer focused keyboards and mice availiable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edd_t Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 blimey, I'll add my 2pence for what its worth. I dont think consoles have brought games down at all! You mention NFS Underground bring tat to games, but dont you think its more society with young saxo owners and films such as F&F that inspired the game in the first place! I think it comes down more to the gamer. Buy the games that appeal to you and don't worry about all the other shite thats out there cos thats for someone else to play! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Who the f*** cares about those games?? You need the intellect of a knat to play them! So what if they’re not intellectually challenging. There fun!!!! If you want to something intellectually challenging then do a suduko. Games are all about having fun and relaxing?!!? they set the path way for most games in the same genre today. didnt stop them all winning game of the year!!! so if your into chess on line or something You see I can't fathom people who try to play a 1st person shooter with a joypad! It's a disaster. To get around having zero fine control over your crosshair, they implement a great deal of auto-aim and a flat plane of gaming - you never really have to aim up or down. Again, dumbing it down to fit a poor interface device. You say the controller is the best? But they have what, 8 buttons, two sticks, and a 4 way pad at most. Do you realise that means that no game on a console can have more than 12 different functions and some movement controls? Every game is limited to this, every game. PC games were limited to 102+ keys! Look at the Mechwarrior series or Freespace II for a vast amount of functions on display. Now games on the PC get... about 12 functions tops - because they have been dragged down to the limitations of consoles. -Ian So what if there aint 102+ keys?!? LOL. who wants to remember all of those!! while your hands spasm trying to quickly press all of them. Keep things simple! thats what the best games demonstrate. GTA was bad enough. not knowing which blooming button to press! Surely a games progression is also in its interface methods not pressing a keyboard that was invented like 40 years ago!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 At least that's my experience, I've been playing 1 PC game almost exclusively for 18 months now, when I had consoles I'd play each game for a few months and then buy the next version of it or a similar alternative. I disagree. there are plenty of timeless console games. i'll bring goldeneye back up for that point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VELOCITY Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I use my PC to play stratagy games like C&C3 or the like. Its not the same playing RTS games on a console. I use the PS3 and 360 for more arcade type games and racing games which ar'nt the same on a PC so bit of both really. I have not found an RTS game on a console which is better to play on a console rather than a PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt H Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 I use my PC to play stratagy games like C&C3 or the like. Its not the same playing RTS games on a console. I use the PS3 and 360 for more arcade type games and racing games which ar'nt the same on a PC so bit of both really. I have not found an RTS game on a console which is better to play on a console rather than a PC. pikmin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VELOCITY Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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