JamieP Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 How did you cure the problem? Greg fitted the pump off his drag engine to it which was known to be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 Greg fitted the pump off his drag engine to it which was known to be good. and all other factors were unchanged, ie breather system, so all conditions which were present with the old pump failure were rectified (or coped with) by the new pump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 and all other factors were unchanged, ie breather system, so all conditions which were present with the old pump failure were rectified (or coped with) by the new pump? Pigs was not a seal failure problem, it was a pump casting issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 Ta, thought I had an over simplified view on that one. I am going to put a new pump on mine during the build but doesn't look like that will gaurentee anything anyway, could still run in to this problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_have Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 Greg fitted the pump off his drag engine to it which was known to be good. Would be nice to compile a list of EVERYONE who has experienced seal failure as follows: 1 Crankseal blown out of Hsg 2 Crankseal failed but retained 3 Tension spring in situe 4 Oil used 5 Oil pressure @ idle (hot) 6 Oil pressure @ 6000rpm 7 Max boost used 8 Breather system detail (incl PCV) 9 Age/mileage of pump (part number/ported) 10 Seal type used 11 method of fitting details 12 Failed after x hours 13 Failure type (dramatic or weap) 14 multiple failure on same engine Plus anything else relevent. Maybe someone could format this on a spread sheet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorin Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 Sorry, here you go, also in the front main seal sticky, http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=435282 Thanks. Lots more info to read and still lots of speculation Yes, crankwalk and not installing them right sure could be two reasons they pop out ! You never here anything over here about crank walk (not that I recall reading anyway), could that be an issue? I don't really understand what causes it, all I know is it's when the crank moves forward/backward, and thats the sum total of my knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorin Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 Phil- No, I believe that everytime I let off under acceleration, the single SSBOV was having trouble evacuating enough pressure, and that the FMS coming out was a byproduct of that. I've had my second valve in place for about 8 months, and it's been well worth it, as I believe that even though the car is leaking oil again, it would have been worse had I not had a way to relieve that substantial crankcase pressure after letting off. [EDIT] - now that I think about it, I'd have to have some bad blowby in order to push that seal out the way that it has been... what's your opinion on this, Phil, because I have a basically new shortblock that has been gone through, ring-to-wall clearance was spec'd, and new bearings were spec'd as well. I'm running Total Seal rings, with a wider tolerance on them than factory. Opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 1 Crankseal blown out of Hsg yes 2 Crankseal failed but retained no 3 Tension spring in situe yes 4 Oil used silkolene 10-50 5 Oil pressure @ idle (hot) 2 bar ish 6 Oil pressure @ 6000rpm 7 bar ish 7 Max boost used 1.2 bar 8 Breather system detail (incl PCV) -12 pipes, no pcv 9 Age/mileage of pump (part number/ported) unknown 10 Seal type used stock 11 method of fitting details fitted with toyota tool 12 Failed after x hours fist time i drove the car, 5k revs max 13 Failure type (dramatic or weap) weap 14 multiple failure on same engine 3 times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted May 26, 2007 Author Share Posted May 26, 2007 If you do see pressure there, how will you be certain what is causing it? By taking a clear tube off and seeing if pure oil or aerated oil flows out? If I can find a way to monitor pressure behind the seal it's got to be coming from either the crankcase or the front of the pump. So if carnkcase pressure is virtually zero, and behind the seal is say 20 PSI, it has to be the annulus on the pump rotor leaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagman Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 This problem does not happen on the n/a ? only the TT -the pumps look the same ,except the clearances differ.seal the same? so what else is different in the 2 engines ? oil system wise and breathing wise? 1 boost pressure- rings/crankcase pressurizing 2 oil squirters on TT -blocking ?stuck bypass? who has renewed them on engine build? could these effect the oil pump operation 3 oil pump by pass has o ring and not washer? 4 vent system 5 permanent leakage even at idle? makes venting theory not look good -unless 1 large pressure surge causes problem and it remains 6 oil pump loading or surge/excessive rpm/poor pick up of oil? air in oil? that alters clearances? 7 crap pumps or seals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 If I can find a way to monitor pressure behind the seal it's got to be coming from either the crankcase or the front of the pump. So if carnkcase pressure is virtually zero, and behind the seal is say 20 PSI, it has to be the annulus on the pump rotor leaking. So you'll measure both the pressure behind the seal and the crankcase pressure independantly? Or do you have an engine that you know 100% has normal crankcase pressure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 For the same crankcase pressure the force acting on the seal is much much higher than that acting on the dipstick - something like 13-14 times more force. I don't have exact dimensions so that's a rough number. If people are lubing the seal OD whe they install them then the friction holding resisting that force will be very low - I'm not sure how you can make a blanket statement about the dipstick blowing first, anything to back that up? Can you explain how there is so much force acting on the crank seal as opposed to the dip stick? Are you referring to surface area difference between the two? One thing you would have to take into consideration is the fact that if there IS crankcase pressure present, it will expose the dip stick to this directly, whereas in order to apply pressure to the oil seal, it must equalise through a 1/8" hole first! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 1 Crankseal blown out of Hsg No 2 Crankseal failed but retained Yes 3 Tension spring in situe No 4 Oil used Shell 10W 40 twice, 5W 30 once 5 Oil pressure @ idle (hot) 30 PSI 6 Oil pressure @ 6000rpm 117 PSI could be more wasn't looking. 7 Max boost used 1.1 bar 8 Breather system detail (incl PCV) Once with PCV + vent to air catch can, and twice with PCV + catch can plumbed back into system. 9 Age/mileage of pump (part number/ported) unknown,not sure if pump has been removed/replaced, but mileage is 45K 10 Seal type used stock, + the so called uprated version;) 11 method of fitting details fitted with a made tool similar to Toyota tool. 12 Failed after x hours fist time, lasted for 14 months, second and third, 1-2 hours. 13 Failure type (dramatic or weap) Dramatic. 14 multiple failure on same engine 3 times __________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 Can you explain how there is so much force acting on the crank seal as opposed to the dip stick? Are you referring to surface area difference between the two? One thing you would have to take into consideration is the fact that if there IS crankcase pressure present, it will expose the dip stick to this directly, whereas in order to apply pressure to the oil seal, it must equalise through a 1/8" hole first! I think you'll find that the front of the oil pump isnt "sealed" from the crankcase. Pressure could probably equalised around the clearances on the drive splines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-Ricky Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 I think you'll find that the front of the oil pump isnt "sealed" from the crankcase. Pressure could probably equalised around the clearances on the drive splines. Thats my point,it is sealed, the only way pressure can be equalised is through the 1/8" drain hole (could be smaller?) and the drive splines, and i seriously doubt that they would add up to anything like 1/8", and that is the only direct link to the rest of the crankcase Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_have Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 1 Crankseal blown out of Hsg NO 2 Crankseal failed but retained YES 3 Tension spring in situe YES 4 Oil used SILKOLENE PRO S 5 Oil pressure @ idle (hot) 1.2 BAR 6 Oil pressure @ 6000rpm 7 BAR 7 Max boost used 1.7 BAR 8 Breather system detail (incl PCV) 12AN FROM HOTSIDE + PCV 9 Age/mileage of pump (part number/ported) 13 YEARS 80K 10 Seal type used STOCK 11 method of fitting details TUBE (pressed in via front bolt) 12 Failed after x hours ORIGINAL 13 Failure type (dramatic or weap) WEAP 14 multiple failure on same engine NO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieP Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 Just been for short off boost drive in mine to monitor how much oil is coming out, when i got back i dipped the oil and its very creamy, looks like the problem is failed head gasket on mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austrian Supra Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 I'm not sure how you can make a blanket statement about the dipstick blowing first, anything to back that up? I have personally seen two dipsiticks being pushed out and oil being spilled all over the engine bay after piston ring failures and massive blow by (on modded TT MKIV´s). I also had blowby on nitrous (on my vette though) causing the dipstick to be pushed out and spilling oil onto the headers.... All cars had no crank seal failure....only pushed out dipsticks..... That´s what I have personally seen! I know of other turbo and na cars that get special mounts to hold the dipsticks down so it cannot be blown out.......that´s even on professional road race cars...... That´s enough for you?? BTW, noone needs to believe what I am saying, but I´m not the one with a blown seal, I still have mine in! Just wanted to help other out on their problem.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austrian Supra Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 You never here anything over here about crank walk (not that I recall reading anyway), could that be an issue? I don't really understand what causes it, all I know is it's when the crank moves forward/backward, and thats the sum total of my knowledge. There are guys with modded engines, with ARP main studs and more (shouldn´t be any crankwalk then), who report front seal failures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregsupra4 Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 Just to add that the NA pump does not have the crank sensor hole fixing. This problem does not happen on the n/a ? only the TT -the pumps look the same ,except the clearances differ.seal the same? so what else is different in the 2 engines ? oil system wise and breathing wise? 1 boost pressure- rings/crankcase pressurizing 2 oil squirters on TT -blocking ?stuck bypass? who has renewed them on engine build? could these effect the oil pump operation 3 oil pump by pass has o ring and not washer? 4 vent system 5 permanent leakage even at idle? makes venting theory not look good -unless 1 large pressure surge causes problem and it remains 6 oil pump loading or surge/excessive rpm/poor pick up of oil? air in oil? that alters clearances? 7 crap pumps or seals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 If anyone has a simple load cell handy can they please measure the force required to pull the dipstick out of its tube? Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 I have personally seen two dipsiticks being pushed out and oil being spilled all over the engine bay after piston ring failures and massive blow by (on modded TT MKIV´s). I also had blowby on nitrous (on my vette though) causing the dipstick to be pushed out and spilling oil onto the headers.... All cars had no crank seal failure....only pushed out dipsticks..... That´s what I have personally seen! I know of other turbo and na cars that get special mounts to hold the dipsticks down so it cannot be blown out.......that´s even on professional road race cars...... I've seen several cars with dipsticks blown out too, big deal. One of my old cars used to have a spring and larger O rings to help with the dipstick "ejection"! I've never seen it on a 2JZGTE though - that's why I asked. I'm not sure if I'm getting the wrong tone from your post but it sounded a little sarcastic and shitty (if not then just ignore me ). I was only asking a question and trying to contribute, not trying to upset anyone... That´s enough for you?? BTW, noone needs to believe what I am saying, but I´m not the one with a blown seal, I still have mine in! Just wanted to help other out on their problem.... I've got no seal issues either. Basically everyone is here to try to help each other out through ideas and discussion. I wondered what you knew to back up the dip stick comment - sounds like 2 cases of excessive cc pressure from a blown motor and that would definitely tie up with your theory it's not cc presure blowing the seal - unless the dipstick blew quick enough to drop cc pressure before the seal became dislodged.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 If anyone has a simple load cell handy can they please measure the force required to pull the dipstick out of its tube? Cheers. Or even a spring balance would do the job. I don't have my car with me now but could do it tomorrow on 2 different cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 Just for those reading and that haven't seen a oil pump and the bits being discussed.............. Crank seal is the orangey/brown plastic part......... The toothed part mates onto the crank and rotates in the housing...... The pic of the rear shows the enclosed area where the oil is driven....... Angled pic shows the (small) gap between the spinning teeth/cog and the front seal...... PS this is/was a perfectly good pump.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted May 26, 2007 Share Posted May 26, 2007 just to add into Scooter's post - one fitted. http://home.btconnect.com/mkivsupra/2007Engine/DSC03599.JPG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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