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Oil pump (crankshaft front) oil seal failures


Chris Wilson

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Greg fitted the pump off his drag engine to it which was known to be good.

 

and all other factors were unchanged, ie breather system, so all conditions which were present with the old pump failure were rectified (or coped with) by the new pump?

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and all other factors were unchanged, ie breather system, so all conditions which were present with the old pump failure were rectified (or coped with) by the new pump?

 

 

 

Pigs was not a seal failure problem, it was a pump casting issue.

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Greg fitted the pump off his drag engine to it which was known to be good.

 

Would be nice to compile a list of EVERYONE who has experienced seal failure as follows:

 

1 Crankseal blown out of Hsg

2 Crankseal failed but retained

3 Tension spring in situe

4 Oil used

5 Oil pressure @ idle (hot)

6 Oil pressure @ 6000rpm

7 Max boost used

8 Breather system detail (incl PCV)

9 Age/mileage of pump (part number/ported)

10 Seal type used

11 method of fitting details

12 Failed after x hours

13 Failure type (dramatic or weap)

14 multiple failure on same engine

 

Plus anything else relevent. Maybe someone could format this on a spread sheet?

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Sorry, here you go, also in the front main seal sticky,

 

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=435282

 

 

 

Thanks. Lots more info to read and still lots of speculation :(

 

Yes, crankwalk and not installing them right sure could be two reasons they pop out !

 

You never here anything over here about crank walk (not that I recall reading anyway), could that be an issue? I don't really understand what causes it, all I know is it's when the crank moves forward/backward, and thats the sum total of my knowledge.

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Phil- No, I believe that everytime I let off under acceleration, the single SSBOV was having trouble evacuating enough pressure, and that the FMS coming out was a byproduct of that. I've had my second valve in place for about 8 months, and it's been well worth it, as I believe that even though the car is leaking oil again, it would have been worse had I not had a way to relieve that substantial crankcase pressure after letting off.

 

[EDIT] - now that I think about it, I'd have to have some bad blowby in order to push that seal out the way that it has been... what's your opinion on this, Phil, because I have a basically new shortblock that has been gone through, ring-to-wall clearance was spec'd, and new bearings were spec'd as well. I'm running Total Seal rings, with a wider tolerance on them than factory.

 

Opinions?

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1 Crankseal blown out of Hsg

yes

 

2 Crankseal failed but retained

no

 

3 Tension spring in situe

yes

 

4 Oil used

silkolene 10-50

 

5 Oil pressure @ idle (hot)

2 bar ish

 

6 Oil pressure @ 6000rpm

7 bar ish

 

7 Max boost used

1.2 bar

 

8 Breather system detail (incl PCV)

-12 pipes, no pcv

 

9 Age/mileage of pump (part number/ported)

unknown

 

10 Seal type used

stock

 

11 method of fitting details

fitted with toyota tool

 

12 Failed after x hours

fist time i drove the car, 5k revs max

 

13 Failure type (dramatic or weap)

weap

 

14 multiple failure on same engine

3 times

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If you do see pressure there, how will you be certain what is causing it? By taking a clear tube off and seeing if pure oil or aerated oil flows out?

 

 

If I can find a way to monitor pressure behind the seal it's got to be coming from either the crankcase or the front of the pump. So if carnkcase pressure is virtually zero, and behind the seal is say 20 PSI, it has to be the annulus on the pump rotor leaking.

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This problem does not happen on the n/a ? only the TT -the pumps look the same ,except the clearances differ.seal the same?

so what else is different in the 2 engines ? oil system wise and breathing wise?

1 boost pressure- rings/crankcase pressurizing

2 oil squirters on TT -blocking ?stuck bypass? who has renewed them on engine build? could these effect the oil pump operation

3 oil pump by pass has o ring and not washer?

4 vent system

5 permanent leakage even at idle? makes venting theory not look good -unless 1 large pressure surge causes problem and it remains

6 oil pump loading or surge/excessive rpm/poor pick up of oil? air in oil? that alters clearances?

7 crap pumps or seals?

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If I can find a way to monitor pressure behind the seal it's got to be coming from either the crankcase or the front of the pump. So if carnkcase pressure is virtually zero, and behind the seal is say 20 PSI, it has to be the annulus on the pump rotor leaking.

 

 

So you'll measure both the pressure behind the seal and the crankcase pressure independantly? Or do you have an engine that you know 100% has normal crankcase pressure?

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For the same crankcase pressure the force acting on the seal is much much higher than that acting on the dipstick - something like 13-14 times more force. I don't have exact dimensions so that's a rough number. If people are lubing the seal OD whe they install them then the friction holding resisting that force will be very low - I'm not sure how you can make a blanket statement about the dipstick blowing first, anything to back that up?

 

 

Can you explain how there is so much force acting on the crank seal as opposed to the dip stick?

Are you referring to surface area difference between the two?

One thing you would have to take into consideration is the fact that if there IS crankcase pressure present, it will expose the dip stick to this directly, whereas in order to apply pressure to the oil seal, it must equalise through a 1/8" hole first!

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1 Crankseal blown out of Hsg

No

 

2 Crankseal failed but retained

Yes

 

3 Tension spring in situe

No

 

4 Oil used

Shell 10W 40 twice, 5W 30 once

 

5 Oil pressure @ idle (hot)

30 PSI

 

6 Oil pressure @ 6000rpm

117 PSI could be more wasn't looking.

 

7 Max boost used

1.1 bar

 

8 Breather system detail (incl PCV)

Once with PCV + vent to air catch can, and twice with PCV + catch can plumbed back into system.

 

9 Age/mileage of pump (part number/ported)

unknown,not sure if pump has been removed/replaced, but mileage is 45K

 

10 Seal type used

stock, + the so called uprated version;)

 

11 method of fitting details

fitted with a made tool similar to Toyota tool.

 

12 Failed after x hours

fist time, lasted for 14 months, second and third, 1-2 hours.

 

13 Failure type (dramatic or weap)

Dramatic.

 

14 multiple failure on same engine

3 times

__________________

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Can you explain how there is so much force acting on the crank seal as opposed to the dip stick?

Are you referring to surface area difference between the two?

One thing you would have to take into consideration is the fact that if there IS crankcase pressure present, it will expose the dip stick to this directly, whereas in order to apply pressure to the oil seal, it must equalise through a 1/8" hole first!

 

 

I think you'll find that the front of the oil pump isnt "sealed" from the crankcase. Pressure could probably equalised around the clearances on the drive splines.

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I think you'll find that the front of the oil pump isnt "sealed" from the crankcase. Pressure could probably equalised around the clearances on the drive splines.

 

 

 

Thats my point,it is sealed, the only way pressure can be equalised is through the 1/8" drain hole (could be smaller?) and the drive splines, and i seriously doubt that they would add up to anything like 1/8", and that is the only direct link to the rest of the crankcase

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1 Crankseal blown out of Hsg

NO

2 Crankseal failed but retained

YES

3 Tension spring in situe

YES

4 Oil used

SILKOLENE PRO S

5 Oil pressure @ idle (hot)

1.2 BAR

6 Oil pressure @ 6000rpm

7 BAR

7 Max boost used

1.7 BAR

8 Breather system detail (incl PCV)

12AN FROM HOTSIDE + PCV

9 Age/mileage of pump (part

number/ported)

13 YEARS 80K

10 Seal type used

STOCK

11 method of fitting details

TUBE (pressed in via front bolt)

12 Failed after x hours

ORIGINAL

13 Failure type (dramatic or weap)

WEAP

14 multiple failure on same engine

NO

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I'm not sure how you can make a blanket statement about the dipstick blowing first, anything to back that up?

 

I have personally seen two dipsiticks being pushed out and oil being spilled all over the engine bay after piston ring failures and massive blow by (on modded TT MKIV´s).

 

I also had blowby on nitrous (on my vette though) causing the dipstick to be pushed out and spilling oil onto the headers....

 

All cars had no crank seal failure....only pushed out dipsticks.....

 

That´s what I have personally seen!

 

I know of other turbo and na cars that get special mounts to hold the dipsticks down so it cannot be blown out.......that´s even on professional road race cars......

 

That´s enough for you??

 

BTW, noone needs to believe what I am saying, but I´m not the one with a blown seal, I still have mine in!

Just wanted to help other out on their problem....

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You never here anything over here about crank walk (not that I recall reading anyway), could that be an issue? I don't really understand what causes it, all I know is it's when the crank moves forward/backward, and thats the sum total of my knowledge.

 

There are guys with modded engines, with ARP main studs and more (shouldn´t be any crankwalk then), who report front seal failures.

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Just to add that the NA pump does not have the crank sensor hole fixing.

 

This problem does not happen on the n/a ? only the TT -the pumps look the same ,except the clearances differ.seal the same?

so what else is different in the 2 engines ? oil system wise and breathing wise?

1 boost pressure- rings/crankcase pressurizing

2 oil squirters on TT -blocking ?stuck bypass? who has renewed them on engine build? could these effect the oil pump operation

3 oil pump by pass has o ring and not washer?

4 vent system

5 permanent leakage even at idle? makes venting theory not look good -unless 1 large pressure surge causes problem and it remains

6 oil pump loading or surge/excessive rpm/poor pick up of oil? air in oil? that alters clearances?

7 crap pumps or seals?

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I have personally seen two dipsiticks being pushed out and oil being spilled all over the engine bay after piston ring failures and massive blow by (on modded TT MKIV´s).

 

I also had blowby on nitrous (on my vette though) causing the dipstick to be pushed out and spilling oil onto the headers....

 

All cars had no crank seal failure....only pushed out dipsticks.....

 

That´s what I have personally seen!

 

I know of other turbo and na cars that get special mounts to hold the dipsticks down so it cannot be blown out.......that´s even on professional road race cars......

 

 

I've seen several cars with dipsticks blown out too, big deal. One of my old cars used to have a spring and larger O rings to help with the dipstick "ejection"! :)

 

I've never seen it on a 2JZGTE though - that's why I asked. I'm not sure if I'm getting the wrong tone from your post but it sounded a little sarcastic and shitty (if not then just ignore me :) ). I was only asking a question and trying to contribute, not trying to upset anyone...

 

That´s enough for you??

BTW, noone needs to believe what I am saying, but I´m not the one with a blown seal, I still have mine in!

Just wanted to help other out on their problem....

 

I've got no seal issues either. Basically everyone is here to try to help each other out through ideas and discussion. I wondered what you knew to back up the dip stick comment - sounds like 2 cases of excessive cc pressure from a blown motor and that would definitely tie up with your theory it's not cc presure blowing the seal - unless the dipstick blew quick enough to drop cc pressure before the seal became dislodged....

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If anyone has a simple load cell handy can they please measure the force required to pull the dipstick out of its tube?

 

Cheers.

 

 

Or even a spring balance would do the job. I don't have my car with me now but could do it tomorrow on 2 different cars.

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Just for those reading and that haven't seen a oil pump and the bits being discussed..............

 

Crank seal is the orangey/brown plastic part.........

The toothed part mates onto the crank and rotates in the housing......

The pic of the rear shows the enclosed area where the oil is driven.......

Angled pic shows the (small) gap between the spinning teeth/cog and the front seal......

 

 

PS this is/was a perfectly good pump..........

oil pump 3.jpg

Oil pump 2.jpg

Oil pump.jpg

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