Emergency vehicles & bus lanes

[Jiversteve]

This morning driving up A23 past Gatwick airport on two lane road, with the inside lane is a bus lane.

The road is 50 mph and thats what I am doing, an ambulance then hacks up behind me at speed blues and twos giving it some.

 

Question;

Should the ambulance us the bus lane to undertake me, bearing in mind its illegal for me to use it?

or

Should I pull into the bus lane, breaking the law, and let the ambulance past me, bearing in mind he would be breaking the speed limit?

 

Which is the lesser of two evils?

[Pixelfill]

I would imagine the Ambulance would expect you to pull into the bus Lane, as it could be dangerous for the ambulance to undertake you due to it being a manoeuvre you might not expect.

 

Mike

[Charlotte]

You should pull into the bus lane, obviously if there's nothing there.

 

What's the point of him swerving round you into a bus lane when he'll have to overtake everything else on the right?

 

Would a copper really stop you for pulling into a bus lane when you're moving out of the way for an ambulance?

[Al Massey]

you can use a bus lane to turn left or be overtaken,but buses and taxis have priority

[Class One]

All he'll expect from you is not not hinder their progress. Usually he would have planned ahead and decided which way he was going to go. As for an exemption in the bus lane, technically he doesn't have an exemption, but if he's involved in a collision, his driving would be factored in.

[Kopite]

I'd have used the buslane, although i think it was Chris Webley who got a ticket for doing such a thing when everyone in a queue of traffic he was in moved over to let some sort of emergency vehicle through. I suspect it was cancelled afterwards though

[merckx]

Difficult one.

 

Maybe you should've pulled into the bus lane, if he used that lane I think he would've been concerned that you would move over to the left and hit him.

 

Less chance of an accident if he stayed in the outside lane I think.

[Jiversteve]

But surely in a traffic queue it would be safer for the ambulance and the other road users, bearing in mind that the busses in their lane can legally undertake you that the ambulance should use the bus lane!

[Ian W]

Just this weekend i actually had to drive through a red light in order to let an ambulance progress past me.

 

i assume this is also forgiven under those circumstances?

 

(i only pulled just passed the lights and into the side by the way, and stopped before the actual cross-roads)

[Jiversteve]

All he'll expect from you is not not hinder their progress. Usually he would have planned ahead and decided which way he was going to go. As for an exemption in the bus lane, technically he doesn't have an exemption, but if he's involved in a collision, his driving would be factored in.

 

 

Would the police have the same favourable(?) attitude if it was me who had the accident.

 

I have passed the IAD and I also plan ahead. Does that make me equally immune from prosecution.

 

Bearing in mind past threads on this site, where drivers are now easily identified and subsequently prosecuted, would I be right in thinking that I as the (victim) motorist, I should continue on my way, without breaking the law, despite the fact that I am hindering an emergency vehicle.

[garethr]

Common sense left the enforcement of traffic law a long time ago.

 

http://www.expressandstar.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=25&num=79171

 

In Doncaster Mark Freeman pulled forward over a red light to let an ambulance pass on a 999 call. He thought he was doing his public duty and pleaded not guilty. The magistrates advised him to change his plea to guilty. Result: £60 fine, three points, £35 costs and £300 in lost wages.

 

 

http://www.radar-detectors.co.uk/news_passed_a_red_light_to_let_police_car_through.asp

 

Daily Mail, Wednesday, 10 th August 2005

A driver thought he was doing the right thing by moving over for a police car with flashing blue lights. Martyn Knight was soon thinking again – after the officer booked him for nudging through a red traffic light.

[TLicense]

I've sat at a red light before with a police car behind me with it's lights and siren on when I had nowhere else to go.

They can treat a red light as a give way, but can-not force you to go through it.

As soon as it went green I pulled through the light and pulled over.

I'd much rather do that then pull through a light and cause an accident.

Still I'm amazed that traffic police prioritise someone going through a red light when trying to help them over the original cause of need to put on the lights and siren to get to an emergency.

[Ian W]

In Doncaster Mark Freeman pulled forward over a red light to let an ambulance pass on a 999 call. He thought he was doing his public duty and pleaded not guilty. The magistrates advised him to change his plea to guilty. Result: £60 fine, three points, £35 costs and £300 in lost wages.

 

last time i'll be doing that then!

[Pot]

Going to work, I use the M5 : Jct 11 to 15, M4 to the next Junction, and the M32 all the way into Bristol... Apparently one of, if not the worst bits of Motorway in the country for accidents...

 

It's not an uncommon sight for me to see an ambulance blasting down the hard shoulder (Or Fire Engines, or Police doing silly speeds), so what difference does a bus lane make? Mathematically, the percentage of cars in the bus lane would be less, yes their MPH would be less than the average vehicle, but considering the average vehicle is stuck in the traffic jam because of the incident, they're not really going to be competition...

[Jiversteve]

Perhaps I should have started a poll.

 

Break the law in favour of emergency vehicles or save your licence.

 

So far we seem to be at 50/50

[Feakins]

I know the road as I used to drive it every day. Surely it would be easier for the ambulance to fly down the bus lane rather than make all the cars move over!

[hogmaw]

It's not too late to start a poll. I for one would always pull into a bus lane or go thru a red light if there were blue lights and sirens behind me. I've done it several times and I will do it again. The law sucks ass I'll take the 3 points and fine on the chin

[Pot]

I know the road as I used to drive it every day. Surely it would be easier for the ambulance to fly down the bus lane rather than make all the cars move over!

 

No need for a poll... Outside my office (Spectrum Building in Bristol Broadmead for those who know it), is a funking huge Shopping centre being built (The 'Broadmead Alliance' IIRC)... Now, the road keeps changing patterns, it can change daily, but seems to have settled down recently...

 

On the side heading out into the center (Left to right from my building, if you walk out from McDonalds, it's the 1st lane you'll get run over on as the busses are easilly doing 50, and not 30, up to the 'Bear Pit' roundabout)...

 

Anyhow, I digress... This road is folllowing the end of a Motorway, and has a bus lane, and is next to a few hell hole areas, so emergency vehicles are always going up and down... I have about 5 fag breaks a day, and always see an emergency vehicle going down the bus lane, even when there are no vehicles to over/undertake... I've even been minding my head on their wing mirrors when I've come out of McD's...

 

Now judging the amount of CCTV in the area (It's 50m from a well know Red Light District), and the fact it's a high crime rate area (On the border of St Pauls), I think if the emergency services were in fault, they wouldn't be doing it anymore?...

[Class One]

Would the police have the same favourable(?) attitude if it was me who had the accident.

 

I have passed the IAD and I also plan ahead. Does that make me equally immune from prosecution.

 

Bearing in mind past threads on this site, where drivers are now easily identified and subsequently prosecuted, would I be right in thinking that I as the (victim) motorist, I should continue on my way, without breaking the law, despite the fact that I am hindering an emergency vehicle.

 

I didn't say that though. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer. If the driver of the ambulance was involved in a collison because he was driving up a bus lane on a blues shout, then he can't expect any leniency because he has no exemptions.

 

In fact in my experience, that if the driver of an emergency vehicle is involved in a collision, they are far more likely to be prosecuted than a member of the public.

 

On a blues run, I wouldn't expect a member of the public to put themselves on offer to allow my progress. If I'm caught in a queue at a set of red lights, I would turn all my equipment off until the light went green rather than force or expose another road user into a dangerous situation.

 

Every time an emergency vehicle driver puts thier blues and two on they put themselves on offer.

 

Now I'm off to bed as the Mrs is moaning about the keyboard tapping!

[Pot]

On a blues run, I wouldn't expect a member of the public to put themselves on offer to allow my progress. If I'm caught in a queue at a set of red lights, I would turn all my equipment off until the light went green rather than force or expose another road user into a dangerous situation.

 

I'm honestly shocked... And in the many times I've seen any emergency vehicle in a situation in deep traffic, I've never seen one turn their 'Blues and Twos' off... If you do, and it doesn't hurt who're you're on the way to help, then fair play to you...

[hogmaw]

On a blues run, I wouldn't expect a member of the public to put themselves on offer to allow my progress. If I'm caught in a queue at a set of red lights, I would turn all my equipment off until the light went green rather than force or expose another road user into a dangerous situation.

 

Picture the situation. I am at the front of a traffic queue at a red light. You're in your police car immediately behind me with your siren going crazy and your blues flashing. I just sit there, waiting, waiting, waiting for the lights to change. Meanwhile someone, perhaps one of your colleagues, is getting murdered. Still I just sit there, waiting for the lights to change (mainly cos Ken Livingston has programmed the lights to be as obstructive to efficient traffic flow as possible, but that's another story). As is often the case, there is no cross traffic.You still say I ought not 'break the law' and edge forward thru the light?

[RedM]

Funnily enough, I've both pulled across a red light to allow a police car through and also not moved at a red light.

 

When I jumped the lights nothing happened. When I didn't I got an "are you deaf and blind?" comment shouted at me once as they went by.

[Class One]

Picture the situation. I am at the front of a traffic queue at a red light. You're in your police car immediately behind me with your siren going crazy and your blues flashing. I just sit there, waiting, waiting, waiting for the lights to change. Meanwhile someone, perhaps one of your colleagues, is getting murdered. Still I just sit there, waiting for the lights to change (mainly cos Ken Livingston has programmed the lights to be as obstructive to efficient traffic flow as possible, but that's another story). As is often the case, there is no cross traffic.You still say I ought not 'break the law' and edge forward thru the light?

 

There's no right on wrong answer here. The old addage apllies that " No call is so urgent as to justify a collision". Every Police driver should know that.

 

Now for example if I'm behind you at a red set of ATS and you're the car at the front of the queue, and the junction wasn't a major one , then I would keep it all going, position my car in a way that would encourage you to move (not force) and thus be able to make progress. However, say I'm approaching a junction that is major and fast road, and by trying to make progress throught the junction would expose another road user to danger, then I would consider either turning it all off and waiting there patiently, or turn off the noise (as people generally panic when they hear it) keep the lights on and more often than not people will try their upmost to help your progress.

 

But I don't want to force the people at the very front of the queue into a busy junction and expose them to danger or worse a collison. Because then I'm no good to my colleague or member of the public that needs my help because I'm stuck at that junction having to wait to have the collision reported by yet another officer (we can't report our own collisons) and having to justify my actions to a Traffic Sargeant who will be rubbing his or her hands together with glee at the prospect of sticking me on or suspending my permit etc etc. (I kid you not!)

 

It's a case sometimes or just holding back, giving people time to react, that can make all the difference about arriving at an incident and being able to deal with it and causing the least amount of fuss and inconvenience to the public on the way there as well.

[Jiversteve]

There's no right on wrong answer here. The old addage apllies that " No call is so urgent as to justify a collision". Every Police driver should know that.

 

Points accepted. Especially at traffic lights, a very local issue and usually at speeds well below 30 mph with distances of less than 20 yards

 

My original point though was that there was an unused Bus Lane, probably a mile long with no turnings left or right, and I was being hassled to use it by an ambulance up my chuff.

 

At 50 mph (I assume you would agree that braking would be a bad idea) I would be in the Bus Lane for at least 200 yards, as would the other motorists ahead of me.

 

Should I and other innocent motorists move into the bus lane risking our licence, job etc. or a lengthy and potentially expensive episode defending themselves in court.

 

Or should the ambulance driver use his disctretion,training etc and use a lane free from other motorists, allowing him clear vision ahead and an unobstructed path etc etc.

 

It's the CCTV and fixed cameras that make this so difficult to make the correct decision. You would get a NIP in the post with a small fine and points, on your hopefully clean licence, with the threat of far greater penalties if you fail to defend yourself sucessfully.

 

The cameras may not have a picture of an ambulance, he might have been past you and you were in the process of manouvering out of the bus lane (looking guilty) as you were approaching the camera. The chances of you remembering the Licence number of the Ambulance or other emergency vehicle would be near enough nil, and obtaining evidence from their controllers that would stand up in court, even if you could find out which of the many Ambulance stations the offending vehilcle came from, would be impossible.

 

This I think is an example of the Big Brother State. I would have to say that judging from some previous posts supposedly indicating succesful prosecutions of motorists giving way to an emergency vehicle, I would be foolish to risk my income, my familys living standard, potentially my childrens education and future (if I lost my licence) for the few seconds that it may save an emergency vehicle.

 

OK I am probably over reacting, but its all plausible and frighteningly possible.

 

Conclusion: Obey the law and go about your business in a lawful manner. Then take the abuse from the passing ambulance, police, fire or whatever department driver asking 'are you deaf and blind' and then report them for aggressive driving and bullying tactics.

 

End of Rant from me

[Andy-No-Knee]

A tough one, I drive fire engines and there are some exemtions from the Road Traffic Act, but not many, like I can remove my seat belt when reversing...on a blue light run!?!?! Go figure!

 

Red lights we have to treat as give way signs and have to slow down to under 10mph before we can cross, and only when safe to do so.

 

As Class One says, when in HEAVY traffic and at a red light we are taught to turn off the sirens untill the light turn green and then on they go again. How ever, a blind eye is turned towards us if we do use a bus lane, and always dependant on the road and traffic conditions. (Same as if we go through a speed trap/gatso/camera on a shout, and it is cheked up on AFAIK. The only time I have heard of a EFAD getting done for going through a speed camera on blues was when the phot was developed it showed all the crew, inc OIC and driver with both hands off the wheel giving the finger. He was done for dangerous driving and driving without due care etc, and then fired I think.)The sceen you have described I would prob have taken the machine up the bus lane, but not much faster than the other traffic unless it was stationary and then it would have been no faster than 30mph. Alot would also depend on the shout. A persons reported fire verses an Automatic Fire Alarm in a building renown for its false alarms in a no brainer, some times you stay on the blues but ease off, others you drive defensivly but try to stay always moving, flowing with the traffic. I have forgotten the actual term but it is akin to filtering on a motorbike.

 

But I think that you would be let off at the sceen (as long as no accident is caused) if you push through a red to let an emergancy responder through, but if it is on camera? Dont think so.