Sheefa Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Hi all, Got one fitted but after speaking to a few people I'm getting mixed reports on where this should actually be mounted. Mark and co @ Phoenix supplied and fitted mine in the downpipe as close to the turbo as possible, well about 1/2 foot away. I've had conflicting information that this is wrong as the reading is too 'hot' and near the turbo and also that this is right as it gives the most accurate reading. Having shit loads of problems with my car at the moment, but the Fuelling and AFR readings are worrying me. At COLD Idle, she's in the 10/11's and at WARM Idle into the late 11's/12's. I'm on stock 440 injectors with Hybrid Turbos. On WOT above 4,000, she hesitates at 14/15 for a second or so, then dips right down into the good low 11's. Tried resetting the ECU and improved slightly. Worried about the damage this could have obviously. Greg @Turbofit said he'll look at my readings on his calibrated AFR gauge so this should shed more light on things. Otherwise, what could be the cause of overfuelling and running rich...... - a wrongly positioned lamba sensor - a faulty lamba sensor - something else? Thanks all. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 My wideband is in the same place and it doesn't seem to affect reading but it does reduce the life of the sensor, probably need changing after a 2 years, running rich could be either the 02 sensor or the map sensor i'd say. Could even be the little coolant temp sensor as that would cause you to run abit rich if its on its way out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Greg the WB02 does not interface with your ECU at all unless it's a stand alone ECU wired that way, or used as a narrow band replacement. Therefore will not affect the way the car is running. On the positioning, always had mine by the turbo, never had an issue. As for a calibrated WBO2, what do you think the AEM is? If you want to cross reference it, take the car to Phoenix and I will check it FOC with my "Mac Daddy" Autronic type B analyser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 DOH! yeah as terry said it is only monitoring the AFR's it isn't connected to the ecu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heckler Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 mines sat where the 2nd cat was - in my CW decat pipe - works fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Check your narrowband output using the diagnostics port and see if it thinks it's in closed loop -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheefa Posted April 13, 2007 Author Share Posted April 13, 2007 Ah.........technical speak...........ah check narrowband input..........ah, ah, ah!! Surely people know by now I'm an absolute muppet at anything technical! So, my ECU doesn't affect the AFR reading I understand that, but I cleaned the O2 sensor in Lemon Juice the other day, well Rich (TrickTT) did and the AFRs increased slightly. My O2 sensor was renewed recently. Terry, that would be great mate if possible. The car is being trailored to Turbofit on Tuesday for a second turbo replacement and to eliminate smoking problems. Greg also mentioned he'll check the AFRs mate with his gauge, but failing an accurate safe reading, I would appreciate it if you could take a look. Thanks! Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheefa Posted April 13, 2007 Author Share Posted April 13, 2007 As for a calibrated WBO2, what do you think the AEM is? Running stock ECU Terry. What do you mean by what do I think the AEM is mate? The AFR gauge? It's a wideband UEGO AEM mate, this one I think http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=67 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Greg your ECU controls the fuel to your car. The stock narrow band sensor, helps bring the car to stoich ( 14.7 AFR reading) under closed loop conditions, these include idling and cruising. When the car is out of closed loop, i.e. wide open throttle, cold start, the ECU has sole control of the fueling. I know the AEM is an AFR gauge mate, my point is it's calibrated too. Edited to say: the narrow band sensor feeds information to the ECU, that is how it tries to achieve stoich in closed loop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Ah.........technical speak...........ah check narrowband input..........ah, ah, ah!! Surely people know by now I'm an absolute muppet at anything technical! So, my ECU doesn't affect the AFR reading I understand that, but I cleaned the O2 sensor in Lemon Juice the other day, well Rich (TrickTT) did and the AFRs increased slightly. My O2 sensor was renewed recently. OK You need a £4.99 multimeter and a look here. All you do is measure the voltage across a bit marked OX1 and the negative terminal of the battery, and compare what you see to what that linked article says you should see in the bit headed "Diagnostic port reading procedure". To clear up your O2 sensor confusion: There is a narrow band sensor, that is the stock one the car came with. It can read somewhere roughly between 13:1 and 16:1 afrs (hence, narrow band). This is great when you are trying to achieve 15:1 afrs for closed loop, giving good economy and emissions, but it's rubbish if you are tuning for 11:1 afrs on boost. So instead you fit a wideband AFR sensor/gauge that can read somewhere between 10:1 and 19:1, thus letting you monitor your fuel for all conditions. Your ECU sees the input from the narrowband O2 sensor and trims it's fixed map according to what it's saying. If it says you are runing a tad rich, it puts a bit less fuel in. If it says it's lean, it adds a bit in. Simple but effective. This is only in closed loop, which is a shorthand way of saying "I'm changing my outputs based on my inputs". When you give a big throttle change, or get on boost, or go over 4000rpm or whatever else it takes to drop the ECU out of closed loop, it simply goes "I'm doing x revs and y boost, spit out z amount of fuel" so it's ignoring any feedback from the O2 sensor - which is great as it's completely out of it's range by this point. So you can hopefully see that if the narrowband sensor is broken in some fashion, it's going to affect your fuelling. When they start wearing out or get mucky, they send a leaner signal than is actually correct. The ECU sees this and increases the fuel in the mix. This leads to poor economy and failed emissions tests. Your ECU has nothing to do with the wideband - it's for your monitoring purposes only. In this case, you can see that on warm idle you are running 12:1 afrs instead of 15:1, so I'd say the stock ECU has adjusted the fueling with closed loop as far as it can towards rich as it thinks the car is running lean. Whether that is an accurate diagnosis or not, checking the narrowband O2 sensor's output will tell you a lot -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Have you definitely got a stock ecu? Have you physically had a look in the passenger footwell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheefa Posted April 13, 2007 Author Share Posted April 13, 2007 Thanks Terry - I see now. I'll Ian C - I love you. Simply explained for the fool minded like me I'll check the reading and post up the results. Thank you again mate. Will this multimeter do? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DIGITAL-MULTIMETER-AC-DC-OHM-VOLT-c-w-LEADS-FREE-P-P_W0QQitemZ250101191637QQihZ015QQcategoryZ58277QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem See I don't even have one in the house. But I like changing plug sockets. My question is, is the fault likely to be with the Lamba sensor showing an error in the reading, or just the O2 narrowband sensor? As mentioned, on boost she seems to be fuelling mine, just idling which leads me to think, based on what you've detailed above, it could well be the O2 sensor. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheefa Posted April 13, 2007 Author Share Posted April 13, 2007 Have you definitely got a stock ecu? Have you physically had a look in the passenger footwell? Dan, don;'t be stupid - that means I have to undo some funny bolts and touch my dirty grey carpet mate. I haven't looked............but Rich kindly did at the weekend to replace my inline RLTC fuse, and yes, it is a stock one pal. The car had an F-con Fuel and Ignition Timing computer fitted a while ago though. Now in the bin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Thanks Terry - I see now. I'll Ian C - I love you. My question is, is the fault likely to be with the Lamba sensor showing an error in the reading, or just the O2 narrowband sensor? As mentioned, on boost she seems to be fuelling mine, just idling which leads me to think, based on what you've detailed above, it could well be the O2 sensor. Greg I've only seen one wideband O2 sensor go wrong and that gave out a very constant signal, which yours isn't doing. It sounds like only under closed loop it goes wrong. If you are doing a steady cruise it'll go into closed loop, what AFRs do you see then? -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Is the wideband on the AEM like the Innovate one, in that it needs recalibrating at set intervals? If you're still ok for saturday Greg, I can bring my multimeter over too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheefa Posted April 13, 2007 Author Share Posted April 13, 2007 Is the wideband on the AEM like the Innovate one, in that it needs recalibrating at set intervals? If you're still ok for saturday Greg, I can bring my multimeter over too Please Bob mate, that would be great! Hope you had a nice anniversary too. Ian - I see the same when cruising mate - 12's normally, occasionally 13's. On boost she'll go into the 11's above 4k rpm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Ian - I see the same when cruising mate - 12's normally, occasionally 13's. On boost she'll go into the 11's above 4k rpm. It really does sound like your closed loop is shagged then, and the stock narrowband sensor is the first port of call. It's probably reporting a low voltage, 0.4v or less. -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Is the wideband on the AEM like the Innovate one, in that it needs recalibrating at set intervals? Nope it's got a special resistor thingy that means it never needs recalibrating. -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraAyf Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Hi all, Got one fitted but after speaking to a few people I'm getting mixed reports on where this should actually be mounted. Mark and co @ Phoenix supplied and fitted mine in the downpipe as close to the turbo as possible, well about 1/2 foot away. Greg mate, the fitting instructions that come in the box state that the sensor should be mounted at least 36-inches after the turbo. It also mentions than the sensor should be fitted at an incline of 10 degrees from the horizontal position of the pipe. It sounds as if the guys who fitted your AEM gauge simply threw the instructions in the bin. Here is a pic of the instruction manual for reference;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 My wideband Bosch sensor is 2 inches from the turbine of the (single) turbo, and has worked flawlessly for 3 years. It's also had about 40 gallons of leaded fuel past it. Can't break it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foodfreak Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 I know of at least a dozen people who have the wideband sensor within 1 ft of the turbo (singles). Never heard of any problems at all, mine has been that way for 2 1/2 years. Don't worry about it:thumbs: John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheefa Posted April 14, 2007 Author Share Posted April 14, 2007 Ah thanks guys. Andy - Mark and the team @ Phoenix fitted it mate so I'm confident in what they've done and like others have said it seems to work fine in a similar position. Bob came over with a multimeter today and we tested the reading through the diagnostics port. Guess what - a solid -0.36 so clearly the O2 sensor is shagged. New one of those on the credily card then.........as well as other parts no doubt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 14, 2007 Share Posted April 14, 2007 Greg, do you know what pins he used to test the 02 sensor? And what conditions he tested it at. eg idle or at 2500rpms for example. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheefa Posted April 14, 2007 Author Share Posted April 14, 2007 No Smarty, Bob? I know he tested it at idle, circa 1000rpm and with a few blips of the throttle..................followed by a shadow of smoke that engulfed the street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 14, 2007 Share Posted April 14, 2007 No Smarty, Bob? I know he tested it at idle, circa 1000rpm and with a few blips of the throttle..................followed by a shadow of smoke that engulfed the street. Yeah i meant Bob. No worries mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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