MrHanky Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 could well be, i'd take the results with a pinch of salt tho it was the quickest source i could find at the time Will do and I understand I think you have to take most things with a pinch of salt anyway as we base a lot of our thoughts on what other people have told us. I.e. one minute a certain food is good for us, the next it is bad etc etc. You get the idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 As for the problem of those beliving in creationism and the afterlife - yes, many will have a problem, as they have either not followed the word of god, or have been hypocritical... every mistake will have a price, and once that price is paid (by spending a weekend or two in hell) the pearly gates of heaven become welcoming So how does that break down. I mean in terms of say for example suicide bombers. Do they go to hell for good? I know they twist they're own religion for their own personal gain but if you kill loads of people surely you're not destined for great things in the afterlife? Or is it just a case of a few weeks repenting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snooze Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 hi scooter, i'll try my best to answer the questions i have an understanding of - recognition of god is important, its like buying a supra, saying its not made by toyota, publicly saying toyota dont exist and they dont make the supra, not servicing it according to the supra handbooks/service requirements and then turning up for a service when your dirty oil blows up your engine ... its the same thing in my mind, if you reject the notion of god, you reject the idea of there being an afterlife... religion has brought moral and social order - bar when its misused by humans for their own benefit.. Ah - but Scooter was suggesting that it was life with minimal or no other sin (from which I assume you weren't talking about yourself, Scooter, mate! ), therefore, the servicing was being done to the Toyota specification, I think? Actually - maybe I'm trying to analyse this analogy too intimately! Personally, I think a certain degree of life's issues are caused by the fact that people are not as grateful for the life they recieve any more - certain in the westernised world, media, marketing and celebrity status feeds peoples expectations from the word go. Whether peoples gratitude should be to their God, their parents, their society, or whatever - I think people treat their own lives with less value than ever before. btw, Penguin - props to you for trying to present some of the religious (and theistic evolution) side of the discussion in a friendly and jovial manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 btw, Penguin - props to you for trying to present some of the religious (and theistic evolution) side of the discussion in a friendly and jovial manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 So how does that break down. I mean in terms of say for example suicide bombers. Do they go to hell for good? I know they twist they're own religion for their own personal gain but if you kill loads of people surely you're not destined for great things in the afterlife? Or is it just a case of a few weeks repenting? any form of suicide is haram - so automatic entry to hell for eternity.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Personally, I think a certain degree of life's issues are caused by the fact that people are not as grateful for the life they recieve any more - certain in the westernised world, media, marketing and celebrity status feeds peoples expectations from the word go. Whether peoples gratitude should be to their God, their parents, their society, or whatever - I think people treat their own lives with less value than ever before. 110% agree with the above! ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 any form of suicide is haram - so automatic entry to hell for eternity.... Don't they see it as 'getting there early' (to avoid disappointment?) and guaranteeing a place in heaven because of this 'act', that they have deemed holy in some way? What religion are suicide bombers anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cable Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 So how does that break down. I mean in terms of say for example suicide bombers. Do they go to hell for good? I know they twist they're own religion for their own personal gain but if you kill loads of people surely you're not destined for great things in the afterlife? Or is it just a case of a few weeks repenting? The ones who blow people and themselves up in the name of religion truly believe they're doing what's right and that they will be sent to a better place for it. The mind boggles as to how they can be warped into thinking this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewen Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Just got sent this.... DIVINE CALL IF YOU TRUST YOURSELF ONLY. FROM Mrs Ann Smith C/O ROCK OF AGES EVANGELICAL MINISTRY ABIDJAN - COTE D'IVOIRE GOOD DAY Beloved one In Christ, Greetings in name of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am Mrs ANN SMITH ,69 years old widow & a new Christian convert,suffering from long time cancer of the blood (Leukaemia According to my doctor my condition is critical and I might not survive. Although as a christian,I beleive God and I know that I will not die,but will live to declare the glory of God. My late husband (Dr.SIMON SMITH) Our Lord Jesus Christ is my only comforter. I have the sum of Eight million,five hundred thousand US Dollars($8.5m) The fund is presently deposited with a financial company for security reasons and all the documents concerning the fund are in the custody of my lawyer. I inherited the money from my late husband who was an industralist and international businessman. I have prayed concerning this donation for God's guidance and if in your heart you geniunely and faithfully desire-to use this fund for the propagation of God's work in any form whether for Charity,ministry,evangelical work or otherwise in relation to God's work,do get in -touch with me for further arrangements with my lawyer on how you will receive my Charity donation. God bless you one again and as you receive,give and give God all the Glory. Remain blessed in the Lord Yours in Christ, Mrs.ANN SMITH. Cant be a scam surely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Don't they see it as 'getting there early' (to avoid disappointment?) and guaranteeing a place in heaven because of this 'act', that they have deemed holy in some way? What religion are suicide bombers anyway? nope, IMO suicide bombers are just pawns in a political game - with "religious teachings" being misinterpreted and passed on as fact... peer pressure is a powerful thing, hence the reason many suicide bombers are part of a larger group... "O ye who believe! Remain steadfast for Allah, bearing witness to justice. Do not allow your hatred for others make you swerve to wrongdoing and turn you away from justice. Be just; that is closer to true piety." - Qur'an, Surah al-Maidah (5:8) In the quran, it does say if you take the life of one human, it is the same as taking the life of all humanity - i cant find the exact verse but to me it means killing is NOT an option. the taking of life is allowed only by way of justice (i.e. the death penalty for murder), but even then, forgiveness is better. "Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause..." (17:33) As for religion, suicide bombers are out of islam if they commit murder... but that unfortunalty aint gonna stop them callling themselves muslim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaz1 Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 So how does that break down. I mean in terms of say for example suicide bombers. Do they go to hell for good? I know they twist they're own religion for their own personal gain but if you kill loads of people surely you're not destined for great things in the afterlife? Or is it just a case of a few weeks repenting? apparently they get 79 virgins to themselves in there afterlife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 Just got sent this.... DIVINE CALL IF YOU TRUST YOURSELF ONLY. FROM Mrs Ann Smith C/O ROCK OF AGES EVANGELICAL MINISTRY ABIDJAN - COTE D'IVOIRE GOOD DAY Beloved one In Christ, Greetings in name of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am Mrs ANN SMITH ,69 years old widow & a new Christian convert,suffering from long time cancer of the blood (Leukaemia According to my doctor my condition is critical and I might not survive. Although as a christian,I beleive God and I know that I will not die,but will live to declare the glory of God. My late husband (Dr.SIMON SMITH) Our Lord Jesus Christ is my only comforter. I have the sum of Eight million,five hundred thousand US Dollars($8.5m) The fund is presently deposited with a financial company for security reasons and all the documents concerning the fund are in the custody of my lawyer. I inherited the money from my late husband who was an industralist and international businessman. I have prayed concerning this donation for God's guidance and if in your heart you geniunely and faithfully desire-to use this fund for the propagation of God's work in any form whether for Charity,ministry,evangelical work or otherwise in relation to God's work,do get in -touch with me for further arrangements with my lawyer on how you will receive my Charity donation. God bless you one again and as you receive,give and give God all the Glory. Remain blessed in the Lord Yours in Christ, Mrs.ANN SMITH. Cant be a scam surely i think we should start a collection... 1. Penguin (£30) 2. 3. 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cable Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 nope, IMO suicide bombers are just pawns in a political game - with "religious teachings" being misinterpreted and passed on as fact... peer pressure is a powerful thing, hence the reason many suicide bombers are part of a larger group... "O ye who believe! Remain steadfast for Allah, bearing witness to justice. Do not allow your hatred for others make you swerve to wrongdoing and turn you away from justice. Be just; that is closer to true piety." - Qur'an, Surah al-Maidah (5:8) In the quran, it does say if you take the life of one human, it is the same as taking the life of all humanity - i cant find the exact verse but to me it means killing is NOT an option. "he taking of life is allowed only by way of justice (i.e. the death penalty for murder), but even then, forgiveness is better. "Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause..." (17:33) As for religion, suicide bombers are out of islam if they commit murder... but that unfortunalty aint gonna stop them callling themselves muslim. This dude I don't doubt, along with similar parts in the bible. Yet there are those out there who still think they're doing 'gods work' by killing people, some extreme prolife groups for example. Religion can be a very good thing but it can also be equally as bad. Yugoslavia had 3 different religous groups intergrated peacafully for decades until it all came crumbling down, with mass genocide by all groups. I can't help but think that if religion wasn't there in the first place to make the distinction between groups then this wouldn't of happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 any form of suicide is haram - so automatic entry to hell for eternity.... So where does God draw the line in terms of what he forgives. Cause like you said before people that have sinned per se will spend a few weeks in hell (sinned by not believing I mean)...but what if I've killed someone or stolen some sweets from a shop (it was a long time ago!) is it up to 'god' to decide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 This dude I don't doubt, along with similar parts in the bible. Yet there are those out there who still think they're doing 'gods work' by killing people, some extreme prolife groups for example. Religion can be a very good thing but it can also be equally as bad. Yugoslavia had 3 different religous groups intergrated peacafully for decades until it all came crumbling down, with mass genocide by all groups. I can't help but think that if religion wasn't there in the first place to make the distinction between groups then this wouldn't of happened. not a problem dude... its the same with anything... if i had a harry potter book and took out verses, chapters, and lines which implied harry was a good guy and not a killer - and passed this on as "the real harry potter" perhaps we may just see kids trying to kill cats and people... (bad analogy hehe) - unfortunatly its down to interpretation - and understanding... as for yugoslavia, i'm not clued up on the reasons why it all kicked off - but i bet money/land had a bigger part then religion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 So where does God draw the line in terms of what he forgives. Cause like you said before people that have sinned per se will spend a few weeks in hell (sinned by not believing I mean)...but what if I've killed someone or stolen some sweets from a shop (it was a long time ago!) is it up to 'god' to decide? can't give you an answer on what god decides... but murder is forbidden except where its justice (i.e. death penalty) and suicide is deffo a one way ticket to hell.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 can't give you an answer on what god decides... You said every mistake has a price. I was just trying to break that down a bit more because I don't really understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cable Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 as for yugoslavia, i'm not clued up on the reasons why it all kicked off - but i bet money/land had a bigger part then religion You're right it was more about the land (as with most things) but this doesn't detract from the fact of huge numbers of people being killed because of their faith alone. I feel that religion segregates people more than unites them. People will always have differences of opinion but to me, religion is an easy target/excuse for many of the worlds problems. I don't want to offend anyone so I apologise in advance if I do but I personally fail to see where religion has a place in society anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 You're right it was more about the land (as with most things) but this doesn't detract from the fact of huge numbers of people being killed because of their faith alone. I feel that religion segregates people more than unites them. People will always have differences of opinion but to me, religion is an easy target/excuse for many of the worlds problems. I don't want to offend anyone so I apologise in advance if I do but I fail to see where religion has a place in society anymore. religion is not what segregates people, its peoples own moral/status system which segregates one person from another... if its not that, then its skin colour which bothers some people... i think lack of understanding of religion and the media giving "watered" versions of events around the world have created a seed in peoples minds towards a more negitive attitude for people who still have religion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 You said every mistake has a price. I was just trying to break that down a bit more because I don't really understand. what i meant was... if i stole from a shop (er... which i did a very long time ago ) i would be punished in this life and the next - Unless i made ammends with my victim - think of it like karma and on that bombshell.... its time to say good night its been fun folks but i've got a nice weekend planned God Bless You ALL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 You said every mistake has a price. I was just trying to break that down a bit more because I don't really understand. what i meant was... if i stole from a shop (er... which i did a very long time ago ) i would be punished in this life and the next - Unless i made ammends with my victim - think of it like karma and on that bombshell.... its time to say good night its been fun folks but i've got a nice weekend planned God Bless You ALL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 You said every mistake has a price. I was just trying to break that down a bit more because I don't really understand. what i meant was... if i stole from a shop (er... which i did a very long time ago ) i would be punished in this life and the next - Unless i made ammends with my victim - think of it like karma and on that bombshell.... its time to say good night its been fun folks but i've got a nice weekend planned God Bless You ALL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 God Bless You ALL! No thanks, I'm fine as I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 I just can't help thinking back to something Chief said yesterday about differing morals between 1950s and now. I mean is he suggesting that religion is some sort of mind control? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cable Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 I just can't help thinking back to something Chief said yesterday about differing morals between 1950s and now. I mean is he suggesting that religion is some sort of mind control? Agreed, it kinda reminds of when parents tell their kids 'if you don't behave Santa won't bring you any toys', but on a much larger/adult scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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