STEVE C Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 Hey guys, I have to say what a quality site you have here, been cruising round for a while with the search button and found some real good info on the supra which will definitely come in handy. I’m not a total newbie to the supra, had the car about 7 months & I’ve made quite a few mods to the engine including stage 3 hybrids turbos which I have a few questions about….. I had the hybrids fitted in January this year after the j-spec ones failed (a few weeks after buying the car) seemed a logical upgrade better spec & steel blades hence being stronger than the ceramics or so I thought till turbo no1 blew up again! The first turbo has recently failed and after being in the garage 5 weeks the guy that built the turbos has told my mechanic the actuator had burst caused a pipe to leak & overspun the turbo causing a bearing to come loose & destroy most of the internal housing. 1. Does this sound feasible & has anyone else had this problem with their hybrid turbos ?? 2. I thought the actuator was part of the turbo unit itself is this not the case? 3. Is it true you cannot purchase new actuators separately? 4. Would you expect this to be fixed under warrantee? The turbo builder has told the mechanic he will not warrantee the turbos because the actuator is at fault & caused the turbo failure. The mechanic who originally got the turbos for me and installed them has himself had to buy a new turbo unit off the turbo builder and wants to bill me for it! To say i'm gutted is an understatement 1,600 miles on the turbos and this happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONKEYmark Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 bloody hell thats 3 sets of hybrid turbos that have let go now. what sort of power were you running and what mods. i would have thought they should last a while been upgraded with steel internals. you need to put up what mods you running for people to get a better idea. you got boost/egt gauges or has fueling been set up? hope you get it sorted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE C Posted June 29, 2004 Author Share Posted June 29, 2004 Hi m8, My car has had the following mods done to it - Stage 3 hybrid turbos Full decat Blitz Nur-spec exhaust 130 walbro fuel pump (12 volt all the time) FSE fuel regulator Blitz de-limiter HKS FCD Blitz SBC ID boost controller & powermeter HKS BOV HKS R type intercooler HKS cold spark plugs HKS air filter Greedy boost gauge Car was set up on a rolling road afer 1000 carefull miles of running in turbos at 0.9 bar max. Oil was changed also at this point. fueling was good, max boost was set at 1.3 bar never been above that as was warned not to on my standard injectors. I wouldnt mind if I blew them up going crazy at 1.6 bar or something and really booting it but I didnt. I run the turbos in carefully and never really got the chance to go silly in it I only use the car at the weekends. So is this a common problem with Hybrid turbos ? Did the others that have gone wrong have actuator problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONKEYmark Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 that sounds like you gone about it the right way to me, do a search on hybrid turbos. i thought they good for more stick than 1.3 bar. where you get your turbos from. quite a few have gone the hybrid route. somebody should be able to help you out. there was a thread about them a few days ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Cargill Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 Originally posted by STEVE C fueling was good, max boost was set at 1.3 bar never been above that as was warned not to on my standard injectors. Sorry about the problems you are having Steve. The stock injectors, with an uprated fuel pump and FSE can usually go to about 16-18PSI. If fuelling was a problem the turbo bearings would be the last think on your mind IMHO. You'd be looking at burnt out valves, damaged bores etc caused by running lean. Very messy... If the bearings went then it wouldn't matter too much if you had ceramics ot steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 Welcome to the club :cry: You have a PM btw Steve... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 I had exactly the same problem as you!!! My No 1 Stg 3 hybrid blew itself to bits after 1200 miles. And the hybrid builder blamed the actuator being stuck open without even seeing the turbo. My hybrids were supplied via JPS. Leon said he had checked the actuators and they were fine. So he did not believe the builder either. This seems to be the hybrid builders 'get out of jail card' as its the one bit he does not touch. I think you are being b@llshitted. But if you bought them direct I dont know what you can do about it? £1500 for hybrids and no warranty I dont think anyone on here would accept that!!!!???? Good luck! I'd love to know where these hybrids are coming from!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE C Posted June 30, 2004 Author Share Posted June 30, 2004 Thanks Darren you just confirmed what I thought. Everybody’s pointing the finger at each other & not taking responsibility for the turbo failure. (Especially the turbo builder) I've had a few PM's about this so it seems their clearly there is a problem with these turbos. What I can’t get believe is that even if the actuator on theses hybrid turbos could cause such an expensive piece of equipment to fail why leave an old one on it? Why is this not re-newed it’s no good just testing an old one to see if it’s ok & just leaving it on. A new one should be fitted when the turbos re-furbished I've been told these can’t be bought from Toyota but surely someone could fabricate one or use one from another turbo manufacture. It just seems that when you buy hybrid turbos its luck of the draw if you get good actuators or not. How was your problem resolved Darren did the turbo builder replace the turbo under warranty in the end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Leon @ JPS replaced it under warranty. Leon was upset because the hybrid builder billed him for it so he was stuck with labour and turbo costs. So it would appear this bloke is happy too screw the retailer over aswell!! Makes the Vortex budget single look good VFM:) But properly machined hybrids ie rebuilt turbos should be fine otherewise people would have stopped buying them years ago.. I spoke to some other companies about problems with actuators causing Hybrids to fail and they said normally actuators lock shut so your boost goes sky high or they lock open so no boost. I have a boost gauge and neither of these scenarios occured. I had oil smoke then loud mechanical failure..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 This is a real shame. I enjoyed my Hybrid car, and the two sets I had are still going strong MANY thousands of miles later. 1 is on Pete Betts' car on which they must have 30k+ and the other on Barry's who drives like a loon and they have been on there for years. This can only be down to quality of Machining. Both these sets were made by the same place that you guys are having problems with. Their quality control has clearly deteriated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osso Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 is it really possible if an actuator fails to open or close a valve, to blow up a turbo to bits?! i find that hard to believe. Which actuator are we talking about here? the IACV actuator, EGCV actuator, wastegate actuator on 1st turbo, or the exhaust bypass actuator on the 2nd turbo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Cargill Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Originally posted by Terry S Their quality control has clearly deteriated. When Leon was fitting mine last April he said he noticed as he was putting them on that one of the bearings was broken. He had to take them back and get a replacment one. Not very good QC from the builder as it obviously left him like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Originally posted by osso is it really possible if an actuator fails to open or close a valve, to blow up a turbo to bits?! i find that hard to believe. Which actuator are we talking about here? the IACV actuator, EGCV actuator, wastegate actuator on 1st turbo, or the exhaust bypass actuator on the 2nd turbo? OK - will ANY of these cause the first turbo to spool uncontrollably (not boost) and all the time? There is also a modification that is another favourite - and I've seen this on John Branners and another car from TDI - whereby they bypass one VSV (I think to get the first turbo spooling quicker and harder) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Thing is Steve, if they aren't noticed and get fitted, this guy won't cover them even if it's only 50 miles down the road. Silly state of affairs and one that reflects badly on Leon, purely because he has supllied so many more than anyone else. If others had shifted those kinds of quantities no doubt theywould be brought into question too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Even with a1% quality control Steve Out of 50+ sets there must be one that will not be totally pukka Mfs had also done over 9000 miles on his (?) - a problem would normally have shown up almost straight away This is the mod that i mean i think http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/ebv/ebv.htm Although in these A&B are just attached and no T piece used? Has this been done to any that have failed? It was on Fred's that went recently! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Originally posted by Paul E OK - will ANY of these cause the first turbo to spool uncontrollably (not boost) and all the time? There is also a modification that is another favourite - and I've seen this on John Branners and another car from TDI - whereby they bypass one VSV (I think to get the first turbo spooling quicker and harder) The wastegate actuator is on turbo 1 but only controls boost when both turbos are online, the exhaust gas bypass valve is on turbo 2 but controls turbo 1's boost when it's the only one in use. That's the one that can cause overboosting of turbo 1 if it fails, and it's the one I have seen a bypasss mod for The VSV shuts to allow pressure to build up behind the EGBV actuator and start bleeding exhaust gas through the second turbo, functioning as both a prespool for #2 and a wastegate for #1. With this mod, the VSV is bypassed so pressure can never build up and the prespool and wastegate functions are removed. I'm unsure how anyone thinks this is a good idea but there you go. -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Originally posted by Terry S ...... and the other on Barry's who drives like a loon and they have been on there for years. I beg your pardon!!!!!.... Like a loon!!!! I'm not that bad Terry, honest! The turbo's have seen the best part of 2 bar a couple of time (by accident!) and are fine (touch wood!!!). Been on the car about 2 & half years now, I've had them running sequential, then true twin, and now back to sequential, and for hybrids (Stg3) they spool up pretty quickly too! But, I always let the engine warm (about 3 miles) before I see any positive boost on the gauge, and the turbo timer lets them cool down at the end of the day. I bet I've gone and jinxed myself now!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Originally posted by Ian C The wastegate actuator is on turbo 1 but only controls boost when both turbos are online, the exhaust gas bypass valve is on turbo 2 but controls turbo 1's boost when it's the only one in use. That's the one that can cause overboosting of turbo 1 if it fails, and it's the one I have seen a bypasss mod for The VSV shuts to allow pressure to build up behind the EGBV actuator and start bleeding exhaust gas through the second turbo, functioning as both a prespool for #2 and a wastegate for #1. With this mod, the VSV is bypassed so pressure can never build up and the prespool and wastegate functions are removed. I'm unsure how anyone thinks this is a good idea but there you go. -Ian OK - now slow it down for this numpty please m8 LOL! So can the failure of the watesgate actuator cause turbo one to overboost and spin uncontrolled - leadibng to bearing failure IYHO So if the Exhaust Bypass Valve has been bypassed - or doesnt work - then can this cause the first turbo to spin uncontrolled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Can I just add that the modifiation I have seen done for the Exhaust Bypass (see above) - doesn't involve just cutting back this flow as in the mkiv mod link As in - adding a T piece and maintaining the stock links - but adding and link to marginally reduce the flow It has been cut out altogether!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprash Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Im hoping this isnt a case of in the good old days when he started building these turbos they were built to a higher standard than now due to maybe high order amounts. Please let them be ok, please let them be ok..... [/scribs] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Originally posted by Paul E OK - now slow it down for this numpty please m8 LOL! So can the failure of the watesgate actuator cause turbo one to overboost and spin uncontrolled - leadibng to bearing failure IYHO So if the Exhaust Bypass Valve has been bypassed - or doesnt work - then can this cause the first turbo to spin uncontrolled? Sorry guv, I tend to rattle on in a techie fashion because an explanation is usually more useful and more plausible than a "If you do that your turbo will blow up" post with no explanation at all In easy-speak, a failure of the Exhaust Gas Control Valve is what would cause turbo 1 failure by overspeeding. Not the wastegate, not the EGCV, not the IACV. The VSV that controls this actuator can have two mods done to it (that I've seen). One, a bleeder valve that bypasses some boost pressure past the actuator. This means more boost is required before the valve opens and starts the prespool/#1 wastegate effect, so turbo 1 reaches a higher boost. Two, a bypass hose which routes all pressure past the VSV and means the actuator never opens. Now, I've done the bleeder mod and you only have to squeak that bleeder open a tiny amount to hit 0.9bar. So bypassing the VSV completely seems like madness to me. No wastegate control = overspeeding and overboosting. Oh, and my opinion ain't so humble -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprash Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 So do we know if this is a trend with the no.1's that have been failing ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 It has ALWAYS been number one that has failed! OK - so we have another hypo here The wastegate opens to maintain boost A bleed valve can be put in to this line to reduce the air to the actuator - which fools it into keeping it open longer - and thats how you get more boost SO - with a combination of the following from one that failed recently Blown actuator - so open ALL the time Sloppy block off pipe (leaking under test) I dont know if the VSV bypass was done or not (SteveC / Darren . mfs?) Would it be possible for the second turbo to hardly ever build up to speed due to this leak and the first to do ALL the work - therfore putting it under too much load? This would not show on a boost gauge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suprash Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Originally posted by Paul E It has ALWAYS been number one that has failed! Sorry mate, my point was do we know if there is a trend with any of these mods, in the cases where no.1 has failed, but then you have already pointed that at Darren, Steve and MFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Originally posted by Paul E It has ALWAYS been number one that has failed! Before I had the hybrids fitted, it was #2 that went on mine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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