Rain!!

[Matt Harwood]

I don't think you could have put that better Phil.

 

I'm not going to even bother putting my intended reply as yours say it all, and far more eloquently

[osso]

RLTC is for girls who cant drive

 

This thread is quite funny, well its tickled me, its amazing how the change in weather has got people panicking about the rain

 

The problem most people who are new to the supra scene just can not drive! anyone trying to give it some in the wet on a roundabout and doesn't know how to drive a rear wheel drive car should know better!

 

I usually drive with my traction control off, its absolutely crap, and I'd rather be in control than the stock TC unit kicking in. maybe one day I might consider the RLTC once I start increasing the bhp significantly

[Gordon F]

Originally posted by Keith C

For those thinking they can out-drive RLTC:

 

The average driver can detect and control 15-20% of slip.

 

Michael Schumacher can control down to 10%.

 

RLTC can control down to 1%.

 

Interesting figures Keith but where do they come from? I find it hard to believe that MS is only 5-10% better than the average driver. Also, if RLTC has 10x the control of Michael, how come I know of 3 sups with RLTC that have shunted this year, but have yet to see MS bin it (without the aid of Montoya)

In reality RLTC is a huge gain over both stock jap and uk systems. It is nowhere near what F1 teams are running, nor is ever likely to catch up, but if you use your car in the rain it is a very cost effective modification.

I dont have RLTC, but only take the car out when it is sunny, and if it rains, I drive it slowly home

[Gordon F]

Originally posted by Paul Laing

Not if you’re a good driver, you shouldn’t buy a Supra if you need RLTC to keep the car on the road…..

Paul

Paul. Good to see that you've managed to erase this pant spattering moment

[Keith C]

Fook knows where the figures are from, I can't remember. Just remember reading them somewhere.

[Jake]

Originally posted by Gordon F

Paul. Good to see that you've managed to erase this pant spattering moment

PMSL !

[CJ]

Originally posted by Gordon F

Paul. Good to see that you've managed to erase this pant spattering moment

 

Ah, the ghost of threads past eh?

[Terminator]

Originally posted by Gordon F

Paul. Good to see that you've managed to erase this pant spattering moment

 

 

 

:flame Dev

[Terminator]

Having read the link thread again, I can now understand why there is a view held by some that RLTC can impede progress. I thought that some historical information may be relevant at this time.

 

Forgive the long post, many of you know much of the initial RLTC MKIV development. However a significant amount of time was spent by a number of individuals on this BBS to get RLTC working correctly in the MKIV supra so that it does not noticably impede progress.

 

Back in 2001 when a few of us bought RLTC the only way to set up the system was using a DOS based system. Whilst not difficult it was very easy to make errors inputting data. I and a few other member had extensive contact with RL about the internal dat or file that enables RLTC to be used across a range of cars. I also learn that the Pro version used by race teams and on competition car had far more sophisticated logging and was there for easier to tune, but at a price. It transpired that RL had a limited range of data about cars. And used the pro system to set up car when they did the install. I believe that they choose set of parameters as they did not have manufactures data about ABS pulse counts generate by ABS sensors in each make of car. They chose to produce a generic dat, which cover all cars, which should then be tuned by the owner.

 

Many of the early MKIV RLTC owners had problems as the base dat just was not good enough for the MKIV in some cases the internal dat supplied was corrupted so that the task of setting up RLTC facing some owners was huge given the only method was through DOS and 6 to 8 digit codes for every adjustable parameter of which there are about 40. Many early owners reported impeded progress or cars not able to make more than a few thousand RPM in a straight line. This was not RL’s fault as the owners handbook clear states that the internal dat should be checked and adjusted. I think most of us got a surprise that it would not be plug and play, especially when we had bought what we thought was RLTC for a MKIV Supra. RL actually had their own Supra fitted with the system.

 

At the time of the first RLTC group buy one of the ex members of this BBS who was part of the group buy, was a software designer. He set about producing what he called a very simple bit of windows software to make the system easier to adjust and monitor. I volunteered, along with a few others, to act as software and road tester for this new application. After a few months of development Graham Rudd had produce a program that was stable on all current Windows operating systems and gave full on screen adjustment of all parameters. Suddenly dat errors were easy to spot and correct the system was fully tuneable and the results of tuning could be seen on the screen of a laptop live in the car.

 

A few of use spent a further month or so puzzling over a few parameters that we just could not get right and the system still had too much hold on the car. We had more discussions with RL but that did not help. Some owners had used RL services to have the system installed and set up. We were fortunate enough to be able to analysis one of the data from a car set up by RL.

 

But even using this base dat was not giving me the result I wanted from the system. How ever I did notice two areas where the settings differed. The wheel sizes for the car set up by RL did not match the wheels on the car. I believe RL has used other factors to compensate. The other facor was ABS pulse count. Surprising at it seemed even Toyota could not tell me the pulse count. So off came my sensors and I counted front and back, and sure enough there was a difference between the RL set figure and the actual figure on the car. The difference was significant enough to impede the progress of the car especially on the WET and dry settings as the error magnified the % of slip detected by the system and as on wet more than 0% detected or .04 of a second would trigger the system.

 

 

Now armed with all we needed; Grahams application and reference data specific to our car, I developed a dat that actually matched our cars . I fine tuned a number of settings and product the first protype of the dats used in the majority of MKIVs on the BBS and in other part so the world. So convinced was I that the prototype would work, and I was impatient to test it, I loaded it into my car and tested it straight away. The only problem was there was a torrential down pour and standing water on my test track. Throwing caution to the wind I sat in the middle of the track and drove like I was doing a standing ¼. It was amazing I got to 100mph rapidly, in terrible conditions and had full control of the car the back was a little light but I managed to keep the centre line of the car firmly planted over the white line all the way, as it was dark and rainig so heavily it was the only bit of the road I could see.

 

Being curious, I wondered how the stock system would cope, I turned RLTC off and enable the stock JDM system. I straddled the white line the rain was still pouring down so conditions were very similar starting from. I started from the same place and tried to bury my right foot, but the self preservation instinct was triggered by feed back from the car and try as I might my foot would not go to the floor as it had done on the RTLC run. I got to between 35 and 40 mph fighting to keep it straight when the TC cut in and I was side ways, I fought to keep the car from going into a ditch, there was no way I was going to do that again. I did a few more 0-100 RLTC runs for fun and each time I had fantastic control as RL was making use of what little traction there was. I had never dreamed I could do what I had just done in such terrible conditions. The phrase “Driving God” from Top Gear comes to mind as the adrenaline rush was so enormous, get to 100 in such conditions was something I had never even considered, one of the most memorable driving experiences of my life.

 

Thanks to Graham Rudd and a few hours of dat development and testing we now have highly tuned dats that do not hold the car back. If it is set up right you don’t feel it, and if Keith’s figures are correct I can see why. Even Michael would not notice it. RL would have sorted out any low level slip long before even he would have felt it and reacted.

 

RL now have a windows version of their own software, similar in many respect to Graham's. IMHO Grahams is much better, it is more reliable and takes up much less space on your computer too.

 

The defence rests.:flame Dev

[Dragonball]

Originally posted by Paul Laing

Be carefull in the wet mate...just keep the stock traction control on and you'll be fine

 

RLTC you don't need, holds you back and who needs traction control, i like to be in control of my car.

 

Paul

 

Paul - sorry but in plain speak - thats a loads of bollox!

[Terminator]

Paul NLMAO:D

[Matt Harwood]

Originally posted by Paul Laing

Not if you’re a good driver, you shouldn’t buy a Supra if you need RLTC to keep the car on the road…..

Paul

 

Originally posted by Gordon F

Paul. Good to see that you've managed to erase this pant spattering moment

 

Originally posted by Paul Laing

Nearly Wrote Off Car Tonight....Well Nearly!

Driving past the metrocentre tonight on a curving sliproad in 3rd gear my car totally lost traction!!!!! The road was greasy as it had been raining earlier, but i wasn't really pushing the car at all but it went! This was very scary and sent the car nearly 180, then back and sending me half on the grassy verge.....Arghhh! Luckily there was no curbs for me to mount.

 

Christ it's scary shit when it looses it like....I'm allways very carefull in the wet, oviously not carefull enough! Time to drive it in 5th gear at all times in the wet me thinks

 

Anyone else had bad times in the wet but managed to escape?

 

Paul

 

 

PMSL!

 

But yeah, RLTC is for pussys. That's why Blitz asked RL to add it to their car when they did the 'Road car lap record of Nurburgring'. Obviously the car was too fast and they needed to slow it down a little. And Dave Clark, who drove a Dodge Viper in the GT series at that time, was obviously a pussy, and couldn't handle a RWD car. [/sarcasm]

 

Like I said before, each to their own. Personally, I wouldn't be without it

[martynb]

Originally posted by osso

RLTC is for girls who cant drive

 

This thread is quite funny, well its tickled me, its amazing how the change in weather has got people panicking about the rain

 

The problem most people who are new to the supra scene just can not drive! anyone trying to give it some in the wet on a roundabout and doesn't know how to drive a rear wheel drive car should know better!

 

I usually drive with my traction control off, its absolutely crap, and I'd rather be in control than the stock TC unit kicking in. maybe one day I might consider the RLTC once I start increasing the bhp significantly

 

 

Yup - this thread is quite funny

 

Not having been caught by a supra losing it's tail in the wet doesn't indicate some god-given prowess, more that it just hasn't happened yet...

 

Anyone who has experienced late model traction control on eg a porsche or merc would know that it isn't intrusive 99% of the time and that most owners leave it on all of the time - not because they can't drive but because being saved once from pirouetting up the road even once is worth it. Anyone can save a slide or spin with unlimited space but on uk roads there usually isn't even the three or four feet needed to catch it.

 

The main thing which comes to me reading this polarised thread is:-

 

"There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots"

 

Just my two cents from the decrepit end of the scale:innocent:

[SKI]

OK picture this…..

 

Before RLTC:

 

Aigburth Road Liverpool, lights turn green, foot down, copious amounts of water and rain about, car gets to about 20mph the next thing is I’m going backwards along the road facing the oncoming traffic. Outcome: Trousers filled, felt like abandoning the car and going to the central reservation to wait for the heart palpitations to stop, instead ignored multiple 2 fingered gesticulations from other drivers whilst attempting a three point turn correction manoeuvre!!!

 

After RLTC

 

Ford road Liverpool, absolutely chucking it down, lights turn green, car accelerates, this time inertial dampers fully operational: OUTCOME: Waste a new 911 twin porker on my right. Next set of lights, look right and notice the porker again, this time there is more rain inside his car than outside – the guy is gutted! Consider offering him some Kleenex but decide to repeat the process just to rub salt into the old pig!

 

Opinions on a post card!

 

Here is an equation for anyone who still doesn’t get it

RAIN + SUPE + T2 = DEAD

RAIN + SUPE + T2 +RLTC = NOT DEAD

[toyotasuprauk]

I got the impression that what Paul was trying to say was not that RLTC is rubbish, but that he doesn't feel he needs it as he doesn't feel its appropriate to drive with a heavy foot in the rain. The only time he drives quickly is in the dry/ when the car doesn't lose traction.

 

When its wet he drives very carefully and the stock traction control is adequate for that style of driving.

[SKI]

I was deformed at birth.... 95% of my body weight is in my right foot!

[martynb]

Originally posted by toyotasuprauk

 

When its wet he drives very carefully and the stock traction control is adequate for that style of driving.

 

I have only one word in response - snow mode

[outatime]

Originally posted by martynb

I have only one word in response - snow mode

 

That is two words

 

99% of people who don't see the need for RLTC haven't tried it, so are in no position to comment. Some people are just in no position to comment

[martynb]

I know

[Scooter]

Originally posted by outatime

 

99% of people who don't see the need for RLTC haven't tried it, so are in no position to comment.

 

 

maybe not, but if we all lived in the south of France or California would there be as many takers for RLTC?

 

IMO for stock ish cars with half decent rubber, any traction control is over kill in the dry, so all it comes down to is, if you can / or are willing to be restrained in the wet, doesn't it?

 

If you want to 'use' your car 365 days a year then RL will help extract the best performance in low grip conditions, a FACT i would not dispute. Me and a RL equiped car exiting a rain soaked roundabout and i'd get left behind due to either taking it too easy or lighting up the rears by being over eager, whilst RL provides the best acceleration possible (within its own limitations) FACT

 

But also for non RL owners looking in, IMO tyres are of number one importance, safety wise and everyone should be aware of the vast differences in feel not just between brands but also in tread depth differences.

 

For me all i can see RL doing is making me drive faster in the wet, which i'll leave to you to decide whether this would mean i'd be safer or not.................

[Matt Harwood]

OK, picture this, as it's happened to me a couple of times...

 

Rush hour, on the way to work. Sitting at a large busy busy junction, or roundabout, waiting to pull out... after a couple of minutes, (which always seems longer than it is when you're trying to pull out), you pull out in front of something that's not right on top of you, but close enough to cause a problem if you get it wrong. As you pull out, you either start excessive wheelspin, or the back swings out, (either way, you need to back off a little), the car behind thinks you're a twat as he's now breaking to stop hitting your back end, and watching you fishtail it down the road waiting for you to loose it...

 

Or, as above, but simply put your foot down and pull out of the junction as if it were dry. This time, the guy behind doesn't need to break, as you've not cause him any problems, and just thinks that you need to get your car serviced as it sounds like you've got a cronic misfire!

 

Having RLTC doesn't mean you have to loon around in the wet. It's there when it can be useful. - That's it's purpose as a safty aid.

 

I've never used the car on the track to say what it's dry benefits are, but I have used it at speed, at the top exit lane of Woodbridge, and I have to say, it was such a cool feeling!

I switched it to 20% slip, entered the corner at about 60mph, and simply floored it. The rear end stepped out and I could feel the RLTC cutting in. Just to see what would happen, I kept my foot planted on the floor and the car did a perfect powerslide around the corner with such simplicity. At no time dod the car feel like it was out of control. I exited the corner at about 90ish.

I certainly don't recommend trying this unless you are on an airfield like Woodbridge with massive run-offs.

 

I'm not suggesting that everyone should have it. It really is a personal preference. Some people have modified their cars to about 400bhp and still use the J-spec breaks! - Personally, I like the safety aspect as well as the fun aspect of RL.

However as Scott says, decent rubber is a must on a car like this... In fact, any car IMO.

[SKI]

Decent rubber!

 

How long do your tyres last, how long does rubber stay decent, tyres start going off after a couple of months especially when the tread level drops.

 

If you run RLTC it's like having good tread every time you floor her, no worries that your boot is gonna' be saying hello to the boot of the car in front of you at some less than healthy speed.

 

Since I have a house not a pit lane, and I don't fit a new set of tyres every day, I will stick with the RLTC for now

 

What's more I bet running RLTC actually contributes to saving your tyres.....

[Scooter]

Originally posted by SKI

Decent rubber!

 

How long do your tyres last, how long does rubber stay decent, tyres start going off after a couple of months especially when the tread level drops.

 

If you run RLTC it's like having good tread every time you floor her, no worries that your boot is gonna' be saying hello to the boot of the car in front of you at some less than healthy speed.

 

Since I have a house not a pit lane, and I don't fit a new set of tyres every day, I will stick with the RLTC for now

 

What's more I bet running RLTC actually contributes to saving your tyres.....

 

I'm not sure about the tyres going off after a few months?, i'm simply stating that a good brand tyre is advisable and that even with these you have to watch them as the tread reaches the lower depths. Germany i believe has a far more strict legal tread depth level than us, is this just to sell more tyres or is it considered safer due to their unlimited autobahns and maybe a potentially higher aquaplaning risk? I don't know, but i do know from my time driving supra's that tyres alone can have a massive effect on the handling in the wet.

 

Matt's description of pulling out of junctions etc i can relate to (as i expect many can), but again maybe check your tyres before anything else. Imported cars are often running unsuitable jap spec rubber, or the dealer has replaced these with "brand new tyres" but one of the cheaper less grippy brands. I accept that most people buy one supra, some i imagine will have yet to change their tyres, some may not even know what brand they have on the car just that the treads 'ok', but IMO tyres can have a profound affect on the drivers feel /confidence.

 

recently i had cause to use a make shift set of stock 17's for a month or so and hence sourced some secondhand tyres. Now these were a brand called "Star Performance" (heard of them - no me neither!) and i was warned that they were officially "Crap in the wet " by the member who sold them to me.

 

I used these for the month or so and got used to their relative lack of grip but the goodyear F1's on the late arriving aftermarket alloys i now have are excellent as i knew they would be from previous experience.

 

My point though is that if the "star performers" were my first and only experience of supra driving i could have quickly been forming the opinion that "my supra is a nightmare in the wet" etc etc

 

RLTC will make available to you all the grip thats there, but the tyre still has to provide it, so its an enhancement to complement good rubber IMO.

[Keith C]

That's a good point - the RLTC does seem to dramatically increase tyre life. Been so long since mine were done I genuinely can't remember when they were last changed. I've done over 25,000 miles though since I had the car, changed the tyres just once, and still have a fair bit left in the ones on it.

[Ian C]

Aye, but there is a certain something about rocketing up the road to 60mph, slightly sideways, smoking the P0's at 6krpm while the road speed tries to catch up

 

-Ian