mkivsupra.net Membership (part copied due to hijacking)

[Suprash]

Ok, now this might upset a few people, but I have been thinking about it more, and more of late. My membership is obviously up for renewal (which no one has chased me about.... ) Anyway I was just wondering what club days/outings/BBQ's what ever have/will be organised. Now Im not going to get into a huge rant over this, and I know so far me and Clair have received 20 cards to post on other cars for our £20 membership. Surely that cant be the money gone, so I presume is building up somewhere, but when are we going to use it, when are we going to have club days out of it, club merchandise maybe. I know SG is doing the club clothing, but that is paid for by us, not the club. Also now with thor, and Miami paying for the banner at the top, which I know they pay through the nose for, plus trade areas that are paid for and also the huge amount of newbies that have joined recently. When are we going to start to see a return from the club.

 

Im not saying that anyone spends this money, Im not saying that theres any fraud, I just want to know when we will get back from the club what was outlined in the beggining.

 

Im sure Im not the only one that ponders over this question.....

 

[michael]

Likewise I'd be interested to know what the future holds - I run my own vBulletin forum with the potential to house as many users as this on an unlimited bandwidth / server space connection for under £60 a year, any additional costs incurred are purely for my time in setting up and looking after things.

 

A vast pool of money is out there somewhere - the future looks promising, maybe there will be 3 club seats at the JAE?

[Sharpie]

Are we not just going to go round in circles like the last post on this

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19454&highlight=membership

 

(I'm not having a dig at anyone here but, this quesiton never gets settled)

 

I guess if we had some kind of general annual statement then we all would know what we have, what it's been spent on etc.....

 

OR is this not possible ?

[mawby]

It's been said all along that club merchandise will follow only if the club clothing goes without too much hassle. If Rosie finds that people place orders and then can't be bothered to send in the money then we're not gonig to waste our time (which is voluntary before anyone has the nurve to suggest otherwise) sorting out the merchandise.

[michael]

Originally posted by Peter Sharp

I'm not having a dig at anyone here but, this quesiton never gets settled

 

 

Settled or answered?

 

I'm not actually all that bothered if someone is making a bit on the side, I get my £10 worth each year and can't grumble, I'm more intrigued rather than angered

 

I've also just got another 100 keyrings made, I note my old thread on these has been removed so could someone contact me regarding becoming a low volume trader if I'm not allowed to sell them as a normal member.

 

Cheers

 

 

[mawby]

Out of interest Ashley and mcanny, what answer do you actually want? Do you want someone to say that yes there's hundreds of thousands in the bank sitting there doing nothing. Then what? How about if someone let slip that actually all the profits get split amoungst the mods and we've got a big group holiday planned this summer? Then what? Or maybe after costs there's a small sum left that we're hoping to build up to fund such things as the club merchandising (which Rosie has started with the clothing), club discounts (which we're all trying to source, especially for insurance), web site improvements (which Dave has started with the FAQ section), more club presence at events (JAE club stand being paid for by the club for example. I wont mention Santa Pod tomorrow as I've actually folked out the cost of phone calls and postage myself - maybe I should claim for that and decrease the sum even more).

 

We've got some big plans for this club but this is not our jobs. We need time to get things in place. But I'm interetsed to hear, what exactly do you want for your £10s?

[mawby]

Originally posted by mcanny

I'm not actually all that bothered if someone is making a bit on the side

Is that what people really think? My patients is really drawing thin on this matter now.

 

Originally posted by mcanny

I've also just got another 100 keyrings made, I note my old thread on these has been removed so could someone contact me regarding becoming a low volume trader if I'm not allowed to sell them as a normal member.

How old was your thread? No new posts to it in over a month? If so you'll notice that everyone's for sales posts have gone. You want to know why? Cause that's the length of time I've decided posts should say in there for, that's why.

[Jake]

Originally posted by mcanny

I'm not actually all that bothered if someone is making a bit on the side, I get my £10 worth each year and can't grumble, I'm more intrigued rather than angered

I agree.

It seems that some folks think that this is a non-profit making club and that the funds raised are 'ours', where as others consider it to be paid for service that we subscribe to and somebody runs as a legitimate business venture.

I don't have any problem with whichever is correct, I'd be interested to know which it is though.

[michael]

As I stated in my earlier message I'm happy that I get £10's worth from my membership fee, more than that.

 

As I also stated above I'm simply intrigued as to where the money goes - I've been on the other side of things, I've helped run a club, I've helped gather funds (donations rather than forced subscriptions) and have had no issue in letting the members know where it all is - I've brought in discounts with companies, arranged group buys at a personal loss, organised countless events and been out of pocket more than I dare consider.... and why? Because I wanted to do it for the members and I enjoyed the challenge, the financial aspect wasn't an issue to me personally and I gave no reason for the members to wonder what was happening behind closed doors because pages like this were put up for everyone to see.

 

My involvement was with a free club, a club where all the members mucked in where they could to make things a success, if money was needed for something like the JAE it was raised, if banners were used at an event donations were taken... it was all painless enough and nobody grumbled at anyone for making money behind the scenes.

 

As I've said I'm simply intrigued as to where things are going, will the stand at the JAE be enhanced over last year (not difficult) will any subsidised events be available to members? Will there be any discounted merchandise and so on.... those who know the details seem awfully defensive, those who don't are just asking questions - I have every faith that there is nothing dodgy going on and if I never find out the breakdown of expenses then so be it, I'll always be intrigued though *shrug* that's how I am

 

No fingers pointing, no stress and no worries, just a curious nature.

[michael]

Originally posted by mawby

Is that what people really think? My patience is really drawing thin on this matter now.

 

For someone who is in a position of mediation you get awfully shirty for no apparent reason. I think "a bit is being made on the side" because I am aware of the cost to set a site like this up and the associated costs of running a small web based club, I also know what the membership fee is and see a potential for a profit - my maths isn't good but it draws that conclusion, as I've said I don't care if that is the case, I'd just be interested to know if the money is raised to build a club or to turn a small profit, either way I'll continue to pay my £10 as it's a small price to pay for the advice I recieve and the general club experience.

 

How old was your thread? No new posts to it in over a month? If so you'll notice that everyone's for sales posts have gone. You want to know why? Cause that's the length of time I've decided posts should say in there for, that's why.

 

Oh it's an old one, no doubt about it - I'd also like to say that I wasn't having a dig, just raising a point so that I could explore the offered option of becoming a trader if necessary, again your tone indicates a degree of "shirt" apologies if I've sparked that off in some way. On a related theme is there a post anywhere explaining how posts will be deleted after a month? I personally find it useful to search through old for sale stuff so it's a shame to hear that.

[mawby]

Look, I just get pissed off because I put hundreds of hours into this place for free for my enjoyment and the enjoyment of the members alike. Every time someone asks about club funds there's always the "I'm not bothered if someone is making money" line that really means you are bothered and in fact you believe that's what's happening. If that's not the case then why do people keep mentioning it? Why don't poeple just accept that no one is making money out of this.

 

I also re-iterate what I said before, what do people actually want for their £10s? I don't want to waste any more of my time pursuing things for the club if people don't want it.

[mawby]

Originally posted by mcanny

I'd just be interested to know if the money is raised to build a club or to turn a small profit

What money there is is being raised to fund the club. There you have it. So I take it no one will accuse us of making profit again will they?

 

Originally posted by mcanny

I'd also like to say that I wasn't having a dig, just raising a point so that I could explore the offered option of becoming a trader if necessary, again your tone indicates a degree of "shirt" apologies if I've sparked that off in some way.

I interpreted your post to suggest that your for sale post had been picked out for removal on purpose. It would seem that even us moderators can get the wrong end of the stick sometimes; makes a change for me to be causing the arguements instead of trying to stop them. However, I can accept when I'm wrong and will appolgise for the reply.

 

Originally posted by mcanny

On a related theme is there a post anywhere explaining how posts will be deleted after a month? I personally find it useful to search through old for sale stuff so it's a shame to hear that.

Posts in the chit-chat, for sale and events threads will be pruned.

 

I do the for sale ones when no one has posted to them in around a month. It's intended to work like an advert in autotrader or something, you wouldn't place an advert and expect it to still be in there a year later.

 

The events are pruned around a month after the event, unless the event is listed in the upcoming/previous events threads, in which case the post is closed simply so I know not to delete it. This is done as it allows a history of all the events to be kept but means that supporting threads like "northern convoy to JAE" get removed.

 

As for chit-chat, I don't know. It's not mine to look after.

[michael]

Lets keep the toys in the pram here, I'm sure you do a sterling job behind the scenes like all the others involved, nobody appears to be doubting that fact.

 

Intrigue is a wonderful thing, if we were without it the world would be somewhat dull IMO

 

Anyway it's obviously a topic that causes offence to those who run the show, I'm bowing out at this point because I don't want to upset anyone - as I've said I'm happy with what I currently get for £10, more is always a good thing but if nothing changes between now and 2010 I'll still pay up.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

 

** Edit, having just realised this is in announcements and not the members section please feel free to move or delete my comments if you see fit - possibly not what a new visitor needs to read when looking to join up **

[Supragal]

I will look at moving the non-announcement suitable posts into another thread in a while. I'm not going to delete anythign because you can psot what you want- as mcanny says, not ideal for new members lol

 

Everyone seems to be prety narky at the moment (not just here- it's been kicking off at work today also!)

 

Just to get my own point across- Ash, I thought I had posted this in the clothign thread but the club is paying for the set up of the logos for the tshirts (the biggests one off cost of the whole process) so all you're paying for is the items you want and the personalisation you want. This is partly because of the membership and also becuase, if I had split the cost between everyone then if anyone orders in the future they would get it cheaper and that's not fair is it?

 

As Mawby says, if it goes well with the clothing then I'm more than happy to start merchandise stuff.

 

Where does the money go. Interesting. I *believe* (really don't quote me on this) that we are intending to publicise this information to you all BUT it takes time to gather the info from various places- no-one knows everything so we all have to information gather to get it down on paper.

 

Believe me, the hassle some of you lot give me I wish I was getting a holiday out of this hahahaahhahahahahaha

[Supragal]

ok i've moved the comments into this thread, i will edit out the other thread of the non-topical stuff. so basically i've split it into 2. hope thats ok. nothing has been deleted in theory, just moved.

[Lewis]

Mawby.... are you reading different posts to me? I don't see anything inciteful in anything that the people here have said. Perhaps there is some underlying ill-will iono.

 

Anyway, as no doubt most are aware, I am similarly well-versed in costs for sites. I can't say I am really too bothered where money goes however my lack of understanding is as follows:

 

I am perfectly happy to pay for the knowledge, help and general guidance (although I do want a discount for having to read Far's jokes), I think the majority of confusion is in the fact that people are offered things (business cards, stickers etc) that never appear (at least in my circumstances). There are mentions of club funded/organised meets, events and other things of that nature that don't materialise. I don't think anybody is questioning your commitment to the site or your willingness to commit further. I think perhaps it is at this point that somebody should say that the money isn't paid to you and therefore expecting you to justify its usage is unacceptable, however nobody asked you to justify it.

 

When this type of thing comes up (as it has done 3 or 4 times since I joined) it is answered by the wrong people. As money is paid to the club for participation there are two possible scenario's:

 

1) This is a club with paid for membership (non-profit organisation) that has a duty to publish details on the clubs finances to ensure that it is non-profit

 

2) That the club is a business, in which case accounts are submittable to the Inland revenue.

 

Personally (as already stated) I don't really care which it is, like any like-minded person I simply like to know where my money goes and what it is used for in a situation such as this.

 

I presume that if the money that is being taken is outweighing the money being spent (as the case seems to be) then the non-profit part is irrelevant and therefore tax returns are submitted as income statements?

 

People seem to close ranks when this is mentioned and I don't think there is any need for that, if you don't know what the situation is then say so and leave it at that. No need to get shirty about it at all. We are after all a club and should be able to discuss things like this without people taking it personally and getting annoyed by it.

 

I have so far not seen anyone doubt the amount of work put in, the amount of commitment and the willingness to take on unenviable tasks in mod's own time for no recompense which in my mind makes for very commendable mods. Every credit to you for the amount of time you commit.

 

As moderators you also have a responsiblity to administrate the club, not just add/edit/remove posts and run 100 post threads on which logo is best black or red. I think this question is an important one which if answered honestly would prevent the questions coming up as frequently as they do.

 

Before posting I did a search and all the times the question has been asked the issue is skirted around and never truely answered, perhaps that is why it comes up repeatedly.

 

Again, to prevent any misunderstanding I think I can honestly speak on behalf of the majority of (or indeed the entire) club when I say that your efforts do not go un-noticed and you have our gratitude as always (though perhaps it doesn't seem like it).

 

I have said my piece now, it's opinion not fact!

[Supragal]

A few good points Lewis but I feel I covered a lot of them in my previous post already.

 

Right, this isn't meant to sound stroppy even though I've re-read it and it sounds stroppy- I guess answers in this type of situation always will sound a bit off.

 

I completely appreciate the things you and everyone else have said, however:

 

Firstly, you're right, there is an underlying ill-will here for some reason. I'll be honest, the reason I get a bit shirty about it is because this keeps coming up over and over again- when we have the info we'll tell you! We're doing our best! And it's always hinted subtely that perhaps we are all making our millions from this club. nooooooo. I bloody wish! We don't have a club accountant so these things take time, we're trying to set up various payment options/bank accounts etc so until it's all done we don't have 100% accurate info ourselves, theres no point in guessing at it, so yeah, agreed- I don't know.

 

Stickers: I wasn't involved with the club when this happened, but AFAIK (I do stress that point) the "club" wasn't even responsible for sending them out, yet we seem to be getting all the flak over it! That bothers me.

 

100 do we like the logo posts: Ok, I am gonna get stroppy about this comment! Haha, bit personal! Sorry but if didn't ask I would immediately be accused of secretly doing it all, followed by complaints that people weren't happy when the good arrived!! I WANT to give people a chance ot express their opinions. No-one reads all the forums so I put threads up in the most read sections so everyone has a chance to see it so as to avoid any "oh i didn't know about that" stuff. If people haven't ordered stuff/will never order stuff/aren't interested, read the title of the thread (always very clear what it relates to) and don't open it!!! It's actually less effort than reading it and getting narked off!

 

As I have said, AFAIK it is our intention to post the info up relating to how club funds are spent. Someone please feel free to volunteer to put hours into it so it can get done quicker should you wish. (Thats just me being narky btw)

 

"When this type of thing comes up (as it has done 3 or 4 times since I joined) it is answered by the wrong people. " : who are the right people then?

 

"I think perhaps it is at this point that somebody should say that the money isn't paid to you and therefore expecting you to justify its usage is unacceptable, however nobody asked you to justify it." agreed. however, that is exactly what is being asked isn't it?

 

"although I do want a discount for having to read Far's jokes" best point made. I will try and implement it immediately.

 

"There are mentions of club funded/organised meets" I am totally unaware of any of these, can someone give me examples coz I've obviously missed something major here.

 

What do you mean by "we have a duty to administrate the club" exactly? I'm unsure what this means.

 

"Anyway, as no doubt most are aware, I am similarly well-versed in costs for sites" What do you reckon the hosting etc for a site like this should be? I have no idea at all so I'm interested in finding out what you think, plus then what we actually pay. Maybe we're being screwed over.

 

"I presume that if the money that is being taken is outweighing the money being spent (as the case seems to be)" - based on what? comments that people have come up with? I have no idea, I'm not saying that is or isn't the case but thats the over riding issue here really.

 

"I am perfectly happy to pay for the knowledge, help and general guidance; I don't think anybody is questioning your commitment to the site or your willingness to commit further; Again, to prevent any misunderstanding I think I can honestly speak on behalf of the majority of (or indeed the entire) club when I say that your efforts do not go un-noticed and you have our gratitude as always (though perhaps it doesn't seem like it)." - thanks, it's nice to hear that.

 

 

Just cos we're mods/admins etc doesn't mean we arent human! Everyone has bad days/gets upset/wound up and just cos we're mods/admins etc doesn't mean we're not allowed to express our views either!

[mawby]

Well I've got myself into a situation where I can't say anything really. I'm normally much more diplomatic in these situations, must have been having an off day today.

 

I'm very puzzled though as to why everyone wants to know exactly what monies being spent where, but everyone says they don't care about it.

 

Some good has come out of it I suppose, I've learnt never to reply to a thread on this subject again.

 

In fact, don't even know why I'm still here. It's Friday, I'm away for the weekend, lets go!

[Sharpie]

For me, it's only ever been about communication - The last two pages have filled in the missing blanks for me. THANKS

 

and I second what Stealthhosts says below:

 

Originally posted by stealthhosts

that your efforts do not go un-noticed and you have our gratitude as always (though perhaps it doesn't seem like it).

 

[Lewis]

Rosie, I'll try to cover everything forgive me if I miss anything, I thought quoting your post would make this far too long....

 

Stickers: It is listed on a link via the main site (the index header links) as part of a perk of the club membership, whilst I am not aware of who should have been sending them out (although the second time it came up I think I had to send an email to Gaz so maybe it was envy?), I would humbly (and I mean that, I'm not being sarcastic) that if the club is relinquishing all official responsibility for it then it be removed from that area to prevent any confusion. As far as I am aware it was a freebie for paying your membership, maybe this situation has changed and the page in question was not updated.

 

100 do we like the logo posts: an example and partial piss take, I think it's important that the members have a say and an excellent idea to get members to choose, however it does seem to have gone overboard, so much so that many people may be disuaded from looking at the thread, sheer volume of posts can put people off. Like I say though, it was a trivial example and no insult was intended, I fully retract it if I offended you.

 

Who are the right people: As far as I am concerned, and I stand to be corrected, the money is paid to Branners or at least he has ultimate control over it, therefore I would presume he would be the right person.

 

Far's Jokes: If the correct proportion of refund/discount for having to read Far's jokes were applied you would be paying me to be a member! lol

 

Askin you to justify costs etc: No, I don't think anyone asked you (although I was referring to Mawby) to justify the costs, I *THINK* the question was intended for Branners, unless you have the ultimate say-so on the cash.

 

Duty to administrate the club: I mean that by Mawby's obvious upset at having to justify the cost again that answering a legitimate question from a fully paid member is not outside the scope of the mod's AFAIK anyway. I think it's the first time I have seen him stress at what would seem to me to be a trivial thing, and I think I may have been over-zealous in that response, therefore that statement is striken from the record as I am well aware that you know what your duties are as mods and don't wish to suggest otherwise.

 

Costs for the site: It totally depends, I was asked to provide a quote to JB for the hosting of the server but as this is client information it is up to John if he wishes to post the quote I gave based on the figures he provided at the time. Factors are : diskspace, bandwidth (real 95%ile not consumption of file), connection speed (my prices are higher than low-end hosting companies as I use a dedicated OC256 connection. If John is paying any more than £50-60 a month then that should be looked at carefully to assess the value for money as this would seem excessive to me atm.

 

Profit: I rarely pay attention to petty bitching and the moaners/keyboard assassins that make it their lifes-work to bring down the establishment, my opinion was based on the factors as I see them, nameley the number of paid members times the cost of membership, minus an estimated £60 per month server charges. No other factors were involved as I am not aware of any. If others exist then thats another reason for transparency as then people will be fully aware of what else sucks money from the club and can help find more cost-effective solutions if required.

 

homosapienism - I am of course aware that the mods are human (some more than others ) thats why I thought it was important to make it clear that my post wasn't in any way an attack on the mods, simply the situation as percieved by me personally, not anyone else just me!

 

Mawby, it isn't that I don't care about my money, my poin is that I don't care how it is being spent by the club (or if indeed it is pocketed) but I do care that I know where it is going.

 

I feel similarly about my road-tax, I get really pissed off when I drive down my own road full of bumps and potholes and wonder were the feck all my money went as it sure didnt resurface my road.

 

I don't know if perhaps your posts were misinterpreted (though I do think you made your feelings clear, leaving little room for interpretation), i for one feel that you should reply to posts like this and I value your input on the subject. Whilst I have just spent *insert long timeframe here* replying to the posts I am more a conciencious observer than an advocate for total transparency, it is simply something I would like to see, not something I am attempting to force anyone to do.

 

With regards to the millions of squid you are all making from the site: I for one don't think any of the mods make money from the site, if anything I think that when organising things people make a loss (as I am from the alton towers thing) but I do think there is a couple of thousand a year (total guestimate) to be made form the club by it's owner/s. I think that if there isn't then someone needs to professionally look at the books to see where it has gone as in all fairness a club like this should be making money. I just think that the money should be better spent if there isn't any excess?!?

[Branners]

I really cant be arsed reading the usual pile of crap that comes up from this, Im sure they are all valid points but really, its bloody £10 a YEAR. Most of you could drink that in a lunch time.

 

Last time I checked the bank account had over £1500 in it, that was about 4 months ago, there will be more now.

 

The stickers are my fault, I have absolutely no time to ship them out or sort out who wants them and who doesnt. I bought 1000 stickers and 4000 cards so its not as if they ran out.

 

The big club events dont happen cos no bugger will organise them, if I cant find time to do stickers Im not going to find time to do a big event.

 

Membership and trader payments are covering the running costs of the BBS but we are pushing 35gb of bandwidth a month which isnt cheap. Lets say it was £100 per month, that means we need 10 new members a month...do we have that many?

 

Nobody is getting rich from this BBS, the money goes in to the club funds and gets used for hosting, stickers, cards and stuff for events (4 chairs and a gazeebo for the people that want to keep an inventory).

 

So everybody happy now?

 

JB

[Lewis]

I'm sorry that you think my opinions and perceptions are a"pile of crap".

 

 

 

As far as I am concerned that answered everything I wanted to know and won't be commenting further on where my tenner goes.

[Branners]

you did the search, you saw how this question always ends up, I have answered peoples questions this time so maybe now people are happy. Perhaps if people really really knew what it takes to run a club and BBS this large they would think twice about giving moderators stick.

 

JB

[Lewis]

Perhaps you should read the "pile of crap" as had you done so you would see that far from me giving mods stick - you have the wrong end of it!

 

I'm not going to argue about it - you have obviously taken personally what was supposed to be a simple discussion. You have made your point. Sadly I haven't been a member for very long so perhaps this gets discussed far more than I am aware of, in which case I apologise if I helped to stir up a hornets nest. I have nothing but praise for the mods and indeed yourself as a trader or two will confirm.

 

Anyway, I see no need to get into a slanging match about it, if you want to get pissy about it thats up to you mate. I feel I have been quite passive about the whole thing and made a concious effort not to try and piss anyone off or say anything untoward.

[Lewis]

Oh and John,

If you are paying £100 per month (as indicated by your example) then give me a call as for that I could give you an 80GB dedicated server with total control and CPANEL for all accounts enabling you to host as many sites as you wish with ~100GB bandwidth.