Traction control, RWD, handling and the wet

[TrickTT]

To everyone who thinks RLTC is a cure-all, and drivers unused to rear wheel drive:-

This is an exert from an article written by Jeremy Clarkson in 1997:

......And now this phenomenon is creeping into the world of cars as well, in the shape of traction control.

There are a number of different systems, but each, effectively does the same job. If you apply too much power, sensors detect the movement when the driven wheels are about to lose traction, and issue warnings to the engine management system. It then reduces the power being despatched to the overloaded wheel, and as a result you dont crash. The trouble is that traction control doesn't work.

If I put my foot down on a wet road in the Jag, it senses that something is wrong and does what we all do when we're in a quandary. It goes for a long walk round the garden, where, after much chin-scratching, it decides that, yes, it ought to warn the bridge.

But way before the central computer pushes the throttle pedal back where it belongs, the car is coing backwards through a hedge. Electrons are fast, but once the pendulum effect of a tailslide has gotten its teeth into the equation, the result is a sure fire certainty.

And anyway, the usual cause of a tailslide has nothing to do with excess power. It's when the driver realizes he's turned into a corner too fast and backs off. This causes the weight of the car to pitch forwards, lightening the rear end and causing a spin. No power is involved and, as a result, the traction overlord is about as useful as a picnic basket.

It can only sit there feeling dizzy as the car spins round and round. Unless of course, the driver is a talented and brave young soul who knows how to react when the back end makes a break for the boarder.

He knows he's going to need power to sort the problem out, but the traction control will have none of it. Any attempt to press the throttle will be met with a metaphorical slap in the face.....

Note the highlighted paragraph, as i suspect it causes more crashes than burying the throttle into the carpet in wet weather.

Lifting off mid corner in a FWD car will help reduce understeer by bringing the back end round. The supe doesn't understeer so lifting off will kick the back out. If you do it, be prepared to get some opposite lock in quick to catch the impending spin.

RLTC is a good system, i've got it on my supe, but it will not save you all the time.

Be smooth with the controls, remember a 2 inch movement of your right foot is the difference between engine braking and 300+ bhp. If you are not used to RWD get a session booked in a skid car (or sainsburys car park in a 2.8 capri which is where I learned)

Hope this helps someone

[Thorin]

Indeed, RLTC will do nothing to help lateral grip.

 

I prefer to just drive like a pansy in the wet rather than relying on any traction control.

[Rayman]

Good post that, well found!

[Alex]

NO ONE IS SAYING RLTC IS A "CURE-ALL"

 

...but it will help in situations where all the Nigel Mansell wannabies apply too much power, like in an overtake on a damp road etc. There is NO good excuse for not having RLTC. You're an idiot if you think you're faster at reacting than electronics.

[chilli]

Any digital use of the accelerator, epecially on a powerful rwd car is asking for trouble.

 

No one has ever said RLTC is a silver bullet or corrects for bad driving though have they?

 

however the most common reason for losing it in a supra is applying too much power and loosing the back end - and then the panic lift off pendulum etc errors that occur afterwards make it much worse and you risk losing control...

 

what I would say is that RLTC does help there in a way you might not realise.

 

rather than:

 

a) putting down way too much power, the rear stepping out, the driver lifting off violently and possibly getting into more trouble.

 

b) with RLTC you can keep your foot down and let RLTC feather the power. When I hear it cutting in I then can feather the throttle further. However because RLTC never let the power get way too high, even lifting off is much less dramatic than without out it. The car doesn't get into the a) above (unless you really push it too far) in the first place and the balance of the car is always much better, the whole thing is smooth not voilent.

 

Still there is no substitute for learning to drive and being able to handle the car, but we can't all be in race mode every second of the day...

 

The biggest problem with the stock TT system is that the transition to #2 turbo coming online is a massive step in power and balance on the car. Something like RLTC serves to smooth and limit this and really does help keep the car more balanced and under control.

 

PS: Since when did Clarkson know what he is talking about? lol

[AJI]

RLTC (or any TC system) does absolutely nothing to increase grip either latterally or longitudinally.

 

Grip and traction are different 'elements' of how a tyre interacts with the ground.

 

I think the point about how a TC system reacts once the back end is sliding is an important one. Usually when the back end is sliding you need to send some weight to the rear by applying a bit of power. If the TC system is cutting all power then this can not happen and a spin is usually what will result.

 

But I think the important over-riding message is to not go down the line of thinking that if you have a TC system installed then this means it will save you from spinning.

[TrickTT]

There is NO good excuse for not having RLTC. You're an idiot if you think you're faster at reacting than electronics.

I've got RLTC:p

I would suggest that the idiot is the bloke who floors the throttle to overtake on a wet road without being aware that the centre of a road in general (not dried out by traffic) and the white line in particular, is very slippy.

[Alex]

I've got RLTC:p

I would suggest that the idiot is the bloke who floors the throttle to overtake on a wet road without being aware that the centre of a road in general (not dried out by traffic) and the white line in particular, is very slippy.

 

See this is the problem...you don't need to floor it to get caught out, it's not always because the person driving is being irresponsible...it's can just catch you unawares when you "think" you're being sensible.

[Daston]

I totally agree with all of the above, I am in 2 minds on RLTC part of me says I should get it when I get my TT the other part says will I really need it as I will not be stupid in the wet, hell I was scared to hell in the wet when I had a Mini! The thing is you look at cars like TVR and the old muscle cars and traction control was just not there but still people didnt end up writing them off, ok they didnt have a extra wack of power at 4k rpm but then if you know its going to come on at 4k you just take it slower surly. Remember people will be far happier that your 30min late than you being dead.

[Alex]

People are forever writing off TVR's and other big bhp RWD cars. Why people think it doesn't happen is beyond me.

[Daston]

That is true but you dont seem to hear about it, well they dont seem to mention it, but then on the other hand if I had just totaled £40k+ woth of car I would want to hide to

[Gazboy]

That is true but you dont seem to hear about it, well they dont seem to mention it, but then on the other hand if I had just totaled £40k+ woth of car I would want to hide to

 

You're joking aren't you? I posted in the other thread that 147 TVR's were crashed during 04/05 winter between November and February. A Cerbera was written off last night.

[chilli]

See this is the problem...you don't need to floor it to get caught out, it's not always because the person driving is being irresponsible...it's can just catch you unawares when you "think" you're being sensible.

 

 

exactly, for me it is a life/car saving catch all when I'm driving normally and something unexpected might catch me out.

 

Now I concentrate a lot when driving (to the point I don't even like talking too much sometimes lol) and I always try to expect the unexpected, I'm very analog and smooth when I drive, especially in the wet and I've been driving fast rwd cars since I was 17 and yet I'm 100% convinced I could get caught out at some stage.

 

I think we all have to accept we are not perfect.

 

After all, this is what 'accidents' are. 'I didn't realise it would happen', now I know I wish I had rltc... etc

 

Been on the forum 2 years and seen it so often it kinda speaks for itself.

 

Learn to drive AND get RLTC - it's not one or the other! (learn to drive properly first though of course lol)

[silvershark44]

I totally agree with all of the above, I am in 2 minds on RLTC part of me says I should get it when I get my TT the other part says will I really need it as I will not be stupid in the wet, hell I was scared to hell in the wet when I had a Mini! The thing is you look at cars like TVR and the old muscle cars and traction control was just not there but still people didnt end up writing them off, ok they didnt have a extra wack of power at 4k rpm but then if you know its going to come on at 4k you just take it slower surly. Remember people will be far happier that your 30min late than you being dead.

 

TVR's are notoriously uncrashable, non a single one has ever crashed since leaving the factory. \\\\\\\And thats a fact!

[Daston]

You're joking aren't you? I posted in the other thread that 147 TVR's were crashed during 04/05 winter between November and February. A Cerbera was written off last night.

 

Ok so I wasnt looking lol

 

Interesting thought, do skid pans let you use your own car? If so could we get a club day at one get some people to try it with RLTC turned on and then off just so people really see the difference.

 

After working with PC's I trust my foot before anything electronic I dont want to have to break hard only for the machine to ask for Ctrl Alt and Delete.

[chilli]

Ok so I wasnt looking lol

 

Interesting thought, do skid pans let you use your own car? If so could we get a club day at one get some people to try it with RLTC turned on and then off just so people really see the difference.

 

After working with PC's I trust my foot before anything electronic I dont want to have to break hard only for the machine to ask for Ctrl Alt and Delete.

 

lol a small dedicated embedded real time system like the controller for RLTC is nothing like Windows or any other general purpose OS. Tust me I've worked on both...

 

Most people trust abs to the point where you'd rather have it (but of course not rely on it)

 

I think there are many more people crashing without RLTC than with it but experiencing a badly timed RLTC fault that prevents the unit from functioning in a way that could have saved them

[Daston]

Fair point and I still think my first "mod" to my TT will be RLTC just so I get artificial stabilizers whilst I get used to the extra power and turbos

[martin_a]

My Supra understeers, it only oversteers with an excess of right foot, i'd expect something with such a large nose and an engine at the front to understeer.

 

What gets people is when the car behaves in an unexpected way. Lift off oversteer was a big issue for 205 GTis back in the day, loads left the road because it didn't behave like a front wheen drive car normally does. The FTO has the same issue, push it too hard and instead of understeer the back comes round, not right for a front engined car.

 

Electronics also cause issues and or make things worse. My mate nearly piled his mini cooper because it had the ESD stability thing on it. He's a great driver having done rallys the lot so pushing the car down a road it began a small slide, mate corrected it at the same time as the computer decided to apply the brake to one rear wheel thus over correcting the issue and producing a huge wobble on to the wrong side of the road.

 

He drives with it turned off now.

 

m.

[imi]

Ok so I wasnt looking lol

 

Interesting thought, do skid pans let you use your own car? If so could we get a club day at one get some people to try it with RLTC turned on and then off just so people really see the difference.

 

Fantastic idea.....I did one in luxemburg where you could take your own car, the BMWs were fantastic in the wet....not sure whether its possible in the UK.

[Gamer]

It's when the driver realizes he's turned into a corner too fast

 

That is where the problem lies. Why should TC be expected to cover for peoples stupidity...

 

Also this statement,

He knows he's going to need power to sort the problem out, but the traction control will have none of it. Any attempt to press the throttle will be met with a metaphorical slap in the face.....

says to me that he never tested race logic because when I push my accelerator plenty happens. He is talking about a stock TC system and we all know what that is like. You cannot compare the stock TC's to race logic they are not even on the same page.

[chilli]

My Supra understeers, it only oversteers with an excess of right foot, i'd expect something with such a large nose and an engine at the front to understeer.

 

What gets people is when the car behaves in an unexpected way. Lift off oversteer was a big issue for 205 GTis back in the day, loads left the road because it didn't behave like a front wheen drive car normally does. The FTO has the same issue, push it too hard and instead of understeer the back comes round, not right for a front engined car.

 

Electronics also cause issues and or make things worse. My mate nearly piled his mini cooper because it had the ESD stability thing on it. He's a great driver having done rallys the lot so pushing the car down a road it began a small slide, mate corrected it at the same time as the computer decided to apply the brake to one rear wheel thus over correcting the issue and producing a huge wobble on to the wrong side of the road.

 

He drives with it turned off now.

 

m.

 

 

I think car electronics such as TC can cause issues, look at the supra stock TC system, it is dangerous and you are better off without it. Same can't be said about a tried and tested, dedicated aftermarket product that has had a lot of time and development put into it

 

OEM traction control is generally a kinda belt and braces hand holding overkill that has to cater to the lowest common denominator - it might be alright for your mum or gran but don't expect it to cut the mustard in a serious application

[TrickTT]

Gamer, that was written in 1997, i dont think RLTC existed back then

Skid pans are brilliant and not too expensive, google is your friend. There is at least one in the midlands.

I would recommend one that has one of the cradle cars. They can program them to any type of skid you wish.

[TrickTT]

Just had a look at the silverstone web site, a 2 1/2 hr course is £99 for individuals, i'll email them and see if they do special rates for group bookings and maybe set up an event for next year if there is enough interest.

[Guest StevieD]

Modern day TC is hugely effective when we are driving conservatively and the unexpected happens. If you are wanting to up the pace and you have the skill/knowledge then turn it off, that way if a slide does happen you should be ready for it and know how to deal with it. Stock supe TT TC is crap nothing new there, so RLTC is a wise investment, and can step in at the crucial moment when our skill or concentration is found wanting.

 

Nothing will ever replace driver skill but even the best make mistakes!!!

[AJI]

I also think half the problem is people driving whilst not concentrating. If you drive any car at any time you should really be on full concentration and always be half expecting the unexpected, it what makes a safe driver in the end.

This half concentration attitude along with TC systems can create an automatic reliance on the fact that the car is 'going to sort itself out' in all situations.

 

I've always said the best method is to learn how your car handles when the unexpected does happen, ie. a slide (either understeer or oversteer, even 4 wheel drift). Only then should you start to 'push' your car in terms of fast driving, and also when the unexpected does happen you'll be in a much better frame of mind as to 1st what is happening and 2nd how to control it.

 

There are people out there that say 'I don't trust my right foot with the power and a TC system would be helpful', really these people shouldn't be driving big BHP RWD cars. It suggests they are not in control.

Sure enough TC systems help in the safety of thought that when the unexpected happens you have the instant response from the electronics, and by all means have them fitted for 'back up' purposes if you feel you need to, but I always say to people to learn how to control slides first so you know what is happening. And bare in mind that if the back end really steps out then you will find it hard to control it with the TC system cutting power.

 

(the above is purely a generalisation and not aimed at any particular person I must point out)