"Lance" alignment settings or...

[Thorin]

I tested all 5 settings I was advised to go for ON THE TRACK, see pictures in my garage, and if you need more of a superbly balanced car I can supply. .

Lance 4/10

toyota 3/10

Rally expert 2/10

Wheel alignment centre 1/10

Marc Ludemann ex porsche race engineer 10/10. His settings were not unlike JOT settings, which BTW were listed on the guys computer system, not made up of imagination. When a car is setup that i can catch it after a major error @ 110mph on multi cambering road @ the ring, it excellent end of story.

Adjusting camber without castor corrections is pointless, it will never be right. You obviously have never been in a well set up Supra. .

 

So what were these Marc Ludemann settings then?

 

So you're saying you tried 5 separate wheel alignment settings out on a track?

 

Hey, I'm no expert, but can you explain why I should go with JOT's settings and have positive camber on the front? Surely with the supe being understeery as it is you'd want more negative camber to increase front end grip. Like I said, I'm no expert, but that just makes no sense to me.

[michael]

It would be nice if we could have a sticky tech thread or something in the FAQs that includes all the various settings in one place.

[Gordon F]

Ever notice stock suspension dip when turning in? any idea how much camber this adds?

I would be interested to know. Do you have a figure?

[Nic]

It's a shame this thread deteriorated a bit, as suspension set up and handling is a subject I am very interested in learning more about.

 

I found this the other day (see attched), which was an interesting read.

 

If CW is about, I'd be interested in his opinions on the subject.

CARROLL SMITH’S CAUSE AND EFFECT GUIDE.doc

[Class One]

Right I've re opened this one an unbanned those who were banned from the thread. But please keep this to tech and not name calling an insults. Thanks.

[Thorin]

From the other thread...

 

My experience on mine with Lance track settings are as follows.

 

18" front and rear bilstein shocks eibach springs TRD anti-roll bars

 

The car handled like it was on rails but tramlined terribly. 2000 miles ruined a perfectly good set of front tyres. Inside inch of both front tyres scrubbed down to cords with almost full tread on the outside edge. It looked to me from the receipts that Roy had bought a couple of sets of front tyres also.

 

I took it to Micheldever and he reset the suspension up. It then didn't handle as well as before but it also stopped trashing tyres and the tramlining wasn't as bad. The guy at the time said "someone has set this up with track settings, great for handling but chews tyres up". When I looked through the receipts I found the LanceW settings printed off the net and with it a receipt from a tracking place with those exact settings on it.

 

That's interesting, I've seen people post that they've had tyre wear issues with the stock settings and that they've had no issues with the Lance settings (michael in this thread for one), but you're also not the first person I've read that has had tyre wear issues with the Lance settings either.

[Class One]

Just out of interest, what settings does CW use?

[Wez]

CW set my car up but I have no idea what the settings are, I am on stock 17" wheels with JIC suspension.

 

It handles very well, much better than it did with the stock suspension on Toyota settings.

 

I have never tried Lances or any of the others mentioned.

[Pete]

Just out of interest, what settings does CW use?

 

I would think that's a trade secret! He evaluates each car on its own merits, suspension components, wheels, road or track use etc.

[AshBhp]

Marc Ludemann ex porsche race engineer 10/10.

 

Contact details for above please.

[Thorin]

Contact details for above please.

 

...and info on the settings.

[Chiefgroover]

Contact details for above please.

HI Ash, hope the motor is going well for you.

He is near the Nurbergring and wont tell the settings, nor will CW or anyone else who is good at geometry. While i knew what he did in general, I didnt know the exact settings. Marc also said he treated each car as a new project, as settings will depend on the suspension and wheels and tyres used. I see his point, harder suspension with less body roll, tyres with harder sidewalls and less distortion at the traction limit would all have to be accounted for.

He didn't have toyotas settings when doing my car. What he did was look at the wishbones, shake his head and say "this is all wrong" because the camber adjustment was done from one end of the wishbone only which knocked out the castor, drove the car, spent a while with his equipment, drove it again, adjusted once more, and hey presto it was like a different car. Steering had feel, insteaded of the usual Supra numb turn and then twitch effect i had nice progressive turn in. The grip level was amazing, it felt like I had tyres way wider. It could drive straight for miles with no hands on the wheel, which i tested for great distances on the better surfaced parts of the autobahn.

I also knocked about 30 seconds of my ring lap time.

The car felt amazing to drive, never driven anthing that felt this good, confident, and progessive.

Marc is well used to working out settings from scratch for race cars, these tend to be the best people to go to IMO, as the text book isnt always the best answer. Hence why everyone who goes to CW raves about his work.

I also think these laser alignment machines are only as good as the operator, far from foolproof.

Having a car set for the ring was perfect for me, as my local roads are a massive challenge to any setup.

It was the best 36euro I have ever spent on a car. If you get to the ring next year Ash, I'll put you in touch with him.

[Thorin]

He is near the Nurbergring and wont tell the settings

 

Now I don't want things to kick off again, but you did say that JOTI's settings were close to these Marc ones, but now you don't actually know what they were?

 

It's JOTI's settings that I've been looking at and I just can make sense of them.

[Chiefgroover]

Now I don't want things to kick off again, but you did say that JOTI's settings were close to these Marc ones, but now you don't actually know what they were?

 

It's JOTI's settings that I've been looking at and I just can make sense of them.

 

They both go in the same direction of change, but by different amounts. I know some of Marcs settings, but they wont help you unless you have the complete set. Therefore JOT's are best of the bunch for now, if your on 18" wheels. At some point in the future I intend to be back at the ring in a Supra, and get the same job done again. After which I can measure and post before any silly bitch can write it off. JOT had alignment done many times before these settings over a 3 year period. John isnt easy impressed, and these settings are doing his job very very nicely.

There is a certain feel to a Supra when its geometry is good, and it's night and day difference. You dont have to drive more than a few hundred yards to appreciate it. I know that sounds looney, but it really is that different. The camber vs castor settings are very important to the outcome. I have had a camber and toe only settings done once, I thought it was good, but I later realised how awful it was when Marc did his stuff. I had no intention of changing it any further when Marc suggested it. I reckoned at that point, many setups later (inc. toyota, lance and rally expert) thats as good as Supra's are going to get. How wrong I was.

How about think less, and just get it done. Then you can come on and tell us what you think. I looked at my old wheels and tyres today, tyres were down to about 2 mm all around, and wear was totally even!.

I know you are baffled at the camber change, but its only revelant to castor used.

Large Merc Garages I believe usually have one guy who does little except geometry all day. Those guys tend to be good with double wishbone setups, my local and very big Merc dealership (highest % merc and bmw onwers in uk in this area - they are like sheep lol) has a guy who regularly sorts out the issues of lowered and big wheeled mercs, even gets them to stop pulling to the left (designed to keep high speed autobahn driving safer they claim) by using non stock settings, he often has to free think his own settings to get cars to drive correctly.

And to think FORD used to turn escorts and capris out with the back axle crooked with noticable differences in wheel base length! lol.

IF you really want to play safe with your settings just go to CW, however far away he is and know your getting it done once and right, unlike some of us who paid too many people to make a balls, before getting it right.

[RedM]

Can I just ask a possibly stupid question here? Can geo settings be knocked out my bumps and the like?

 

It'd be a real PITA to have amazing settings only to find that the car cannot be set up again by anyone other than that person should something happen.

[Chiefgroover]

 

It'd be a real PITA to have amazing settings only to find that the car cannot be set up again by anyone other than that person should something happen.

 

Agreed.

[RedM]

Agreed.

 

So what would you do if your geo got knocked about?

[Chiefgroover]

So what would you do if your geo got knocked about?

 

 

Feel very pissed off. My geometry got very knocked out last November lol.

 

The answer my be take it to some of these laser benches and get them to measure and print so you have a record. Of course CW would shoot you, but thats a risk you have to take lol

[AshBhp]

If you get to the ring next year Ash, I'll put you in touch with him.

 

Sounds like a plan mate, let me know when your going, as i never reached the full potential of my car

[Chiefgroover]

Hopefully May or June, if you come in my convoy you'll get plenty of top end runs as well as the ring!

[jot_ie]

Glad to see this back on track (pardon the pun)

I realise the settings I posted have put a cat among the pidgeons, so to speak, apologies for that.

 

Just to put everything straight, I am no suspension expert, merely a punter chasing that elusive "fabulous handling" supra that I hear so much about

 

I posted my settings purely to provide an alternative for those that would like to try them. I feel they work quite well for me anyway

 

Thorin I realise only too well how frustrating it must be, I was close to selling my supra because of the alignment problems.

You need to be prepared to get the alignment done a few times to get the one that suits you . Thats been my experience anyway

 

As chief said, I have had many alignments (too many) done over the last few years, each time the car felt worse than the last.

I do believe it was a combination of the wrong settings and being set up by idiots.

 

However I also believe that the wheel size contributes greatly to the outcome of any setup.

I have used the stock settings and the lance settings and didnt like them at all. Not necessarily from a tyre wear point of view, but from a handling point of view.

Every time the front end felt light, far too light to inspire confidence. The rear end wiggled etc etc .......

 

These new settings appear to have cured a lot of those erratic and annoying behaviours. The car now feels planted and confident.

I will keep an eye on tyre wear and let you know.

 

I think any alignment is a trade off, based on what you want from it. Some people find excessive tyre wear unacceptable, and others consider it a necessary inconvienience depending on the handling characteristics required, ie road use, track etc.....

 

I do not think the stock toyota settings apply, once you change the cars geometry. ie. shocks, springs, wheels.

 

Almost everybody here runs non standard wheels, mostly 18" I think, and various suspension setups. Its madness to think that the stock setup is going to be good for all of them.

 

I would be particulary interested to hear what effect the tyre wall size contributes to the handling/wear . Obviously the stock tyres have taller side-walls and therefore able to soak up errors in setups as well as bumps etc.

 

Sorry if this all sounds a bit erratic, have to write in a hurry over lunch

 

Glad to see this back

 

John

[Thorin]

Thanks for replying.

 

Well I have stock j-spec bilsteins and springs and wider 18" wheels than stock, but I don't believe this is going to radically affect things over stock. At stock settings the car handles well, most people suggest the lance settings feel more planted and less understeery.

 

While I appreciate you feelings on your particular settings... I think I'm going to go with the lance ones for now. Many satisfied customers with that set up here and over on supraforums whereas your settings just seem to be met with confusion (i.e. the positive camber on the front for one).

 

I'm certainly not qualified to say whether that's right or not, but I'll be a sheep and go with the majority this time and see how I get on. It'll probably be better than whatever out of whack alignment it currently is in any case.