supras in the rain what can be done

[Lucifer]

Linky not working...

 

 

Ooops

 

http://www.mkivstore.com/m-jaydrift.mpg

[geoffvalenti]

hi folks is there much you can do to make the supra handle better in the rain i know it sound silly but im always worried that the tails going to come out so i always take it easy when it pisses down

 

You've got the right idea. When it's wet don't drive like a prat and you'll be fine.

 

Leave your common sense at home and all the RLTC in the world won't stop you from losing control.

 

In some situations I can see that a properly set up traction control system (RLTC, not the useless stock one) can be an asset.

 

Most of the time you're already in possesion of a very effective traction control system. It's called your right foot. Keep it off the throttle in adverse conditions, and you'll be fine

[johnd-mkiv]

Ooops

 

http://www.mkivstore.com/m-jaydrift.mpg

 

nice

 

Just had a set of toyos put on the back and have to say they are a lot better in the wet for grip, spoilt me fun if your that worried go for RLTC

[KaoriFan]

You've got the right idea. When it's wet don't drive like a prat and you'll be fine.

 

Leave your common sense at home and all the RLTC in the world won't stop you from losing control.

 

In some situations I can see that a properly set up traction control system (RLTC, not the useless stock one) can be an asset.

 

Most of the time you're already in possesion of a very effective traction control system. It's called your right foot. Keep it off the throttle in adverse conditions, and you'll be fine

 

recently. i seem to be quoting your threads a lot.

 

I am in complete agreement with what you said in this post, as well.

 

Supra's in the wet what can be done? - drive to the road and weather conditions, that's the safest way.

[mikeyb10supra]

You've got the right idea. When it's wet don't drive like a prat and you'll be fine.

 

Leave your common sense at home and all the RLTC in the world won't stop you from losing control.

 

In some situations I can see that a properly set up traction control system (RLTC, not the useless stock one) can be an asset.

 

Most of the time you're already in possesion of a very effective traction control system. It's called your right foot. Keep it off the throttle in adverse conditions, and you'll be fine

 

This would be my take on things as well, drive to the conditions dont take any silly risks or be baited into racing in the wet and you will be fine, I would only consider RLTC if I was running very high power 500+

[Scoboblio]

Just to repeat what everyone else has said - don't rely on any form of TC when you're getting used to the car and make sure your tyres are in good condition and are the correct size - it made an unbelievable difference to the wet handling on mine when I replaced the skinny rear wheels with properly sized ones.

 

After a few months of gently nursing it round wet corners you'll probably be a much smoother driver in all conditions - I know I am now I've got two years of experience of RWD

[Matt Harwood]

RLTC is very good for keeping things straight, but IMO most 'true' drivers won't like it.

 

Sorry Darryl, but I disagree with you a bit there. There are a lot of proffession racing drivers that use a traction control system.

 

A well set-up RLTC doesn't have to be intrusive. Just enough to assist you when on the car is on the edge.

 

Just my humble opinion obviously

[naybad]

ye snow that will be fun where abouts you from naybad

 

Just north of Dundee m8. So hoping for a mild winter

[Terminator]

 

RLTC is very good for keeping things straight, but IMO most 'true' drivers won't like it.

Ah that old chestnut again.

 

If you want to rely on your foot so be it, but personally I like the advantages of RLTC. If TC is good enough for F1 drivers it is good enough for me. TC is a really important factor in F1, it is part of the car set up, to get best possible lap times. They banned it from F! in the 90’s because it made the car too fast!!! . Drivers actually give the throttle more pressure than is necessary to ensure TC activates, as the best acceleration is gain with a slight slip level at the rear. Any F1 driver will be faster on a lap with TC switch on than he would be without it. I guess they can't be true drivers in F1:)

 

When you look at road cars like the Supra and you analyse tire wear, a driver with RLTC will get more miles from their tires as they have less slip under acceleration than a car with no TC. Which shows that the non TC drive is using excess and inefficient levels of slip. RLTC will hold the wheel spin at exactly the right level for the conditions altering it 100 of times a second. Now I can’t do that with my foot, for those that can, I would really like to be able to do it so please tell me how.

 

There is no way on earth any human can possibly detect all the factors that contribute to loss of traction and react to in order to give the best possible acceleration. High end TC systems are designed to do just that, the safety aspect is secondary. It is just another computer aid, cars are stuffed full of them now. Perhaps we should all go back to coils and points and good old drum brakes.

 

I can not understand why some people are anti TC, I am not talking about the low end systems on most production cars, but the high end systems. Most of us want to get everything we can out of the car, some spend £1000Ks on electronic performance enhancing to increase engine performance, yet the one thing that makes the most difference and enables most to be achieved from all these other devices, is looked down upon and its users seen as inferior drivers. Surely if that is the case we should not have any electronic controller, every enhancing device should be controlled manually.

 

This is not a personal attack on anyone, but I suspect that most critics of high end TC systems, like RLTC, have very little or no sustained experience of their use. As a rider and driver of some 30+ years experience, I must declare my self not a true driver, there I have said it I have finally come out.

[RedM]

Sorry Darryl, but I disagree with you a bit there. There are a lot of proffession racing drivers that use a traction control system.

 

A well set-up RLTC doesn't have to be intrusive. Just enough to assist you when on the car is on the edge.

 

Just my humble opinion obviously

 

I agree with you, Mr. Harwood. After all, when you are driving to work, watching out for idiots and everything alse that makes driving a PITA these days, is anyone really driving like a 'true driver'?

 

I havea very nice set-up thanks to Terminator and it is in no way intrusive unless I am driving like a right idiot. At that point, common sense says slow down.

 

It won't prevent you from aquaplaning or defy the laws of physics but in day to day use it must be the best safety mod out there.

[RedM]

Great post, Phil.

 

I'm not a 'true' driver either.

[geoffvalenti]

Ah that old chestnut again.

If you want to rely on your foot so be it, but personally I like the advantages of RLTC. If TC is good enough for F1 drivers it is good enough for me. TC is a really important factor in F1, it is part of the car set up, to get best possible lap times.

 

I agree with what you're saying Phil, and in situations where you need to drive on the edge of adhesion RLTC is invaluable.

 

The point I'm trying to make (to a new Supra driver) is that if its wet you don't have to drive fast.

IMHO, especially in adverse conditions, it's far better to drive well within the limits of adhesion, rather than relying on RLTC to tell you when you've overdone it.

 

I personally think that RLTC comes into its own when you understand the characteristics of a powerful rear wheel drive car, and can use its ability to sense slip and reduce power by just the right amount, to your advantage.

 

It's when it's used by novice drivers as a "guardian angel" that the problems can occur.

 

This is where I feel that until you have learnt to drive the car without traction control, using RLTC until the laws of physics prevent its help, will just get you into the more tricky situations, at a greater speed, and with less time to get out of them.

 

So yes, in the hands of an experienced driver, a true driver, if you like RLTC is an additional tool in the armoury to help you drive that bit quicker, safely.

 

In the hands of a novice, it could mask the natural characteristics of the car, and encourage over confidence in driving skills that have yet to be learnt.

[Matt Harwood]

Don't get me wrong, RLTC is not an 'excuse' to loon around, and learning how a RWD car handles should be the first thing anyone, anyone who intends pushing the car, should learn to do as a minimum.

[Terminator]

Geoff and Matt both valid points. I totally agree that a driver should learn the characteristics of high performance RWD cars. I should think I have spent around 50% of my driving life in cars over 200RWBHP only 5% of my time as a driver of FWD cars of over 140FWHP and they are very different to drive.

 

I guess I am forgetting that most drivers now have far more expereince of FWD cars than of RWD. Any RWD car can be tail happy in the wet if not driven sensibly. Coming from a realatively low powered FWD car to even a stock MKIV TT is quite an experience. With a little too much enthusiasm no 2 turbo can soon catch you out. There is no substitute for driving experience. A good big empty space is great for finding out where the limits are in any RWD car.

 

I guess when I am writing about RLTC,I am aiming my comments at, on the edge track driving, however the car comes with TC as standard and we all know how unhelpful that can be. I believe it it is far better to have accidentally pushed it too far with RLTC than with the stock system.

 

If you are realatively new to RWD take time to get used to the power of the MKIV find the limits in a safe way particularly in the wet, it will make you a better driver and make the driving experience more enjoyable.

[Chiefgroover]

try RE050 tyres, and a geometry change by someone like CW. Most Supra handling problems in the wet is down to tyres or geometry. Supras can be excellent in the wet, but the stock setup is awful.

All you need is one rear corner of the car to have 1.5 degree of a camber error and it will let go without warning. 95% of people who do geometry resets are crap at them, therefore I suggest you go out of your way to find someone who can demo you a car they have done.

When properly setup the sterring should feel a load heavier, due to castor and toe changes. I also fitted a n/a PAS pump which made it feel a bit heavy but so much better to use. (thought pumps were the same, but this was the result, weird I know!).

When I got mine sorted I have big confidence in the car on wet roads (bar deep puddles!).

[cashpoint]

easily solved don't drive like a prick in the wet and pay attention to the road conditions. then you've got nothng to worry about

[Thorin]

Great post, Phil.

 

I'm not a 'true' driver either.

 

I am. Pussies.

 

 

[Mike M]

Just north of Dundee m8. So hoping for a mild winter

 

Hi mate, I'm about 18mile north of Dundee, Supra earlier this year in the snow was terrible, couldn't even get her out the drive.

 

Maybe see you out and about mate.

[Ewen]

I dont consider myself a great driver, but I'm competant. I'm planning on going BPU soon but wont go for RLTC straight off. I reckon I'll be at a similar level of inexperience with the power when BPU'ed as I was when I drove my first TT. The only problem I've ever had with driving in the wet was due to near-worn rear tyres at speed on a motorway...the rest of my six year survival must be down to an average mix of skill / cautiousness / luck I guess. RLTC as described in so many previous threads sounds fantastic, and if I lose the sense of safe excitment I have now when I go BPU, I'll give it a go. I hope I wont feel as though I need it to survive, but to enhance the Supra experience.

[Kranz]

How about this chaps....

 

I once went on a course with work called Drive & Survive as I used to be an engine calibration engineer that involved lots of extreme test driving (those were the days) LOL.

 

The course was run at the TRL test track in Chobham & my instructor was Viki Butler-Henderson's little brother (GT Chmpionship racer in Marcos team).

What an experience! We did:

 

Advanced vehicle dynamics (perception techniques, slalom, advanced high speed driving etc)

Skid pan

Extreme speed lane change manouvres

Emergency braking with & without ABS

Defensive driving... even a bit of J turns etc

 

It was a thouroughly excellent day and we got through plenty of sets of tyres

 

Is this something that members on here may be interested in doing in the safety of a large test track with plenty of run off space??? Perhaps in their own cars to learn and recognise the limits???

 

I think it was approx £400 for the day but that was usingf their cars....... Should be less.

 

http://www.drivesurvive.co.uk/improving-control-skills-advanced-vehicle-dynamics.asp

[Homer]

I'm not anti-TC by any means, it has its uses in the right conditons or situations.

 

It's when it's used by novice drivers as a "guardian angel" that the problems can occur.

 

This is where I feel that until you have learnt to drive the car without traction control, using RLTC until the laws of physics prevent its help, will just get you into the more tricky situations, at a greater speed, and with less time to get out of them.

 

In the hands of a novice, it could mask the natural characteristics of the car, and encourage over confidence in driving skills that have yet to be learnt.

 

That, essentially, was what I was getting at, but Geoff has worded it much better!

 

I do not think any new Supra owner should rush out and buy RLTC, its very important to learn how the car handles and responses in different conditions. Only after that would RLTC be advisable.

 

There is also the question of what happened to those people that completely lost it when having RLTC switched on (Far, Skyjawa, LeeT). All 3 effectively wrote their cars off (okay, Lee was a close one) IMO as they were not prepared for the sudden loss of traction. Maybe if they never had TC they would be more prepared for the back end to come out?

 

RLTC is on my 'to buy' list, but not high up it