Dragonball Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 Originally posted by Vaughany Paul, you are obviously in favour of the units, so does a boost controller allow the turbos to work more effectively creating more and holding the boost throughout the gear change. For example, if my supe was running 1.2 bar without a boost controller it may create 200hp in 3rd gear (auto) where a boost controller would produce more hp at the same revs or the same hp at lower revs as a direct comparison, i.e in third gear aswell. (These figures were just examples just so I could understand the benefits) Cheers Just check out the dyno run! The HP and and torque brought on quicker and a nice curve up to 1.3BAR Could take it higher boost - but no real need - as this is plenty enough for me! Of course they work - thats why so many people run with them - even if Chris does prefer a bleed valve - it all helps improve the performance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 Paul my Mrs is cursing you...lol..She thought the bank balance was a few ££££ better off until you posted...he,he..In all seriousness I probably would have gone for one anyway...Mmmm or would I...I don't know HELP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonyj Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Get one mate - I can really feel the difference between mine with it switched off (full decat with CW restrictor) and it on - especially between 3.5-4.5k where the 2nd turbo is coming online. The general problem I see with controlling boost on the supra is that it varies a lot on a day to day basis depending on temperature. A boost controller allows you to tweak your settings from the comfort of your cockpit so that you can always achieve your target boost. With a restrictor ring alone, you'll either overboost when it is cold or not produce your target when it is warmer. You can use a bleed valve to compensate for this, but you have to open the bonnet to do that and there is a real danger of overboosting if you push it to the limit. In contrast, my Blitz is fantastic at reeling the boost in at my preset warning level so I can always aim high and know that it won't let things get out of hand. Having said all of the above, I'd still make sure you sort all of the other "safety" bits out first - a decent fuel pump and intercooler will sort your car out a treat and allow you to safely make the most of your boost regardless of how you choose to limit it!!! Note that you need the Power Meter to automatically switch between the 4 maps on the SBCID but that gives you excellent control, allowing you to tweak for maximum response at low speeds and maximum gain at higher speeds! That's my 2 cents anyway :)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 No reason for a bleed valve not to be cockpit adjustable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Originally posted by Chris Wilson No reason for a bleed valve not to be cockpit adjustable. LOL! No reason at all - but then again no reason why they invented calculators - the Chinese used the abacus for thousands of years quite succesfully! Ah - the good old days! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 I suppose it looks as if I am in the dark ages at times, but IMO a bleed valve works better than an electronic controller on sequentially turboed engines. There's also the 35 against about 350 pounds price difference. I would love to sell a 350 quid product with associated margin, just as I would like to sell aftermarket air filter kits, but I can't bring myself to recommend either for the JZA80 application. I have ALWAYS said both are poor value for money, the latter IMO harmful in many cases. I'll crawl back under my stone now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick_Devlin Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Originally posted by Paul E the Chinese used the abacus for thousands of years quite succesfully! And they still do... Its only the lazy people that opt for all singing all dancing gizmos. Fools that are swayed by cheap advertising :flame Dev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyJawa Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Originally posted by Chris Wilson I suppose it looks as if I am in the dark ages at times, but IMO a bleed valve works better than an electronic controller on sequentially turboed engines. There's also the 35 against about 350 pounds price difference. I would love to sell a 350 quid product with associated margin, just as I would like to sell aftermarket air filter kits, but I can't bring myself to recommend either for the JZA80 application. I have ALWAYS said both are poor value for money, the latter IMO harmful in many cases. I'll crawl back under my stone now... Chris, you make some valid points there. I guess, and I'm going from the reasons that I'd get an electronic one (even though they are poor value), it is the gadget factor. Being able to play with a display etc, and what they can show etc, and the different points you could set it at (thinking of SBC-ID and Powermeter here!). Not saying anyone is right or wrong, just waffling really!, as from my knowledge of scoobs, both work equally well, but just chipping in with my 2c as to the reasons people may have gone for the electronic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonB Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Can't you also do things like change the boost curve with rpm with an electronic controller? That's an advantage (I think!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Originally posted by SimonB Can't you also do things like change the boost curve with rpm with an electronic controller? That's an advantage (I think!). Look at the above thread - you can see it on mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Walker Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Chris, I have to disagree on the bleed valve. They are such a crude, unpredicatable and unreliable method of increasing boost. Electronic Boost Controllers (moreso the latest generation) are state of the art, I think the latest EVC 5 has more electronics in it than the average 5 year old computer. IMHO. Gaz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Originally posted by Gaz Walker Chris, I have to disagree on the bleed valve. They are such a crude, unpredicatable and unreliable method of increasing boost. . Ooooo...a gaunlet flies out from the pressing crowd There is a hushed silence and all eyes turn slowly to see who this upstart, that dares challenge the might of the tuning legend and the mystery of his 'widget' They part - and part a bit more (well he's not a 'small' chap is he now?) There stands - the Geordie masher Feared by southerners from Darlington down for his famed Pie eating and Newky Brown swallowing...! What will the champ say...? (tune in next week...!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 PMSL :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLicense Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Hmmm, I wonder if the performance gain with the £350 boost controller with a CAT, is equal, less or more than a £250 decat pipe with £20 Restrictor ring and £35 bleed valve? (Not including fitting which would probably even them out a lot more) I know it's been covered before, but I really don't see the point of removing a restriction and replacing it with a restriction. I know the heat from the CAT is the point. I would rather sort out fuelling and turbo efficiency problems so that when I remove the 1st CAT, the boost that I make with the controller switched off is sustainable for the rest of the engine. Anyway I know which route I've chosen, right or wrong, and it lights up to tell me every time I key on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason m Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Originally posted by Vaughany I am now planning the next stage of my mods. My supe has the following perfomance mods. Nurspec R exhaust system, HKS Induction kit, 2nd Cat removed, CW SMIC, Samco hoses for Intercooler and Coolant. Trust Racing plugs and a trl fuel cut defender for safety. The car runs at about 1.05 bar, I am now looking to remove the 1st cat and fit a restrictor ring to raise and hold the boost at 1.2 bar. My question is do I need to fit an electronic Boost Controller and if so what advantages does this give me. For example I am aware that a Boost Controller will allow me to set 4 levels of boost depending on which controller I purchase starting with say stock boost rising to 1.2 bar. What other advantages does it offer, if I am not planning to change the turbos etc yet, are electronic boost controllers required. It seems with a J-Spec you can achieve 1.2 bar of boost just by removing the cats so a boost controller is not required. Is this the case or does the boost controller offer other advantages such as holding the boost throughout the gear change etc which I believe would allow fastest acceleration etc throughout the gear change. Thanks for any help as I still trying to get to grips with the ideal way to achieve maximum performance. Look at the mvp group shipping thread on general if you are interested in getting a ebc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Originally posted by Gaz Walker Electronic Boost Controllers (moreso the latest generation) are state of the art, I think the latest EVC 5 has more electronics in it than the average 5 year old computer. Just because something is loaded with electronics and features it doesn't mean it's more reliable or effective. In fact the more complicated something is the more likely it is to go wrong and the more features you have the less likely you are to use them all. Flash controllers with lots of features have a "wow" factor and people can't wait to buy the latest one, making money for manufacturers, suppliers and tuners. I bought the AVC-R and then eventually realised it was just a nice looking but pointless box that can be replaced with a 25quid restrictor ring. If a boost controller could be used to reduce the boost on the car with both cats out then that would be a different story, that would be useful. If I'd taken the car to Chris to start with I'd have saved myself, hmmm lets see, around 2.5K on useless parts plus christ knows how much on labour and a hell of a lot of hassle. I'm not so gullible now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonyj Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Blimey!!! Are you serious about that 2.5k on useless parts?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Well off to have last cat removed tomorrow and uprated fuel pump fitted but can't afford boost controller so restrictor ring for now at least..There was me thinking tuning a car was easy!!!So many opinions..gets a bit confusing...Never mind...one thing people do agree on is that I will have a big smile on my face tomorrow with no cats!! What was the 2.5K on Nick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Originally posted by Nick If I'd taken the car to Chris to start with I'd have saved myself, hmmm lets see, around 2.5K on useless parts plus christ knows how much on labour and a hell of a lot of hassle. I'm not so gullible now.... thats a shame - I'm not sure how i could sell you 2.5K's worth - let alone 2.5K's of useless stuff C'mon Nick - dont exagerate - a boost controller costing you 350 does not warrent such theatricals unless you were really ripped! With the info available on here and all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Best price on a SBC id 3 please...tried via PM's but no replies.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Originally posted by Stu Well off to have last cat removed tomorrow and uprated fuel pump fitted but can't afford boost controller so restrictor ring for now at least..There was me thinking tuning a car was easy!!!So many opinions..gets a bit confusing...Never mind...one thing people do agree on is that I will have a big smile on my face tomorrow with no cats!! What was the 2.5K on Nick? It can be confusing but the good thing about this forum is people can put forward their views and you can make an informed decision based on that. Otherwise you have to take the word of the tuner you're using and whilst there are some very reputable and professional people out there unfortunately there are also some people that are only interested in taking your money. The money went on an AVC-R, HKS F-CON5 and loom, GCC and HKS SUV. The FCON was completely unecessary but at the time I was new to the club and decided to listen to the tuner rather than a couple of people from the list, big mistake. I went for the AVC-R because it was the latest and greatest boost controller and I thought it would do the job, turned out to be a PITA. If you're using a boost controller and happy with it then I'm not going to argue with you, I just don't want another one:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Hear what your saying but hard to decide sometimes with so many of the debates being split down the middle!!Feel like tossing a coin sometimes.. Mind you god knows where I would be without the advice from here..Probably sat in the waiting room at "Superchips"..lol Everyone I speak to thats not a member says "have you chipped it?"...Mmmmmmm...NO!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Originally posted by Paul E thats a shame - I'm not sure how i could sell you 2.5K's worth - let alone 2.5K's of useless stuff C'mon Nick - dont exagerate - a boost controller costing you 350 does not warrent such theatricals unless you were really ripped! With the info available on here and all... Approx price: AVC-R : 380+vat FCON5 : 900+vat Loom : 300+vat GCC : 350+vat SUV : 245+vat Total : 2555 You may argue that the parts aren't uselss and to some they're not but to ME they are which is why I've sold all of them except the SUV, still looking for a cheap 2nd hand std airbox. This was four years ago, now there's a lot more suppliers offering better prices. Not crying about it, just trying to make a point. I'll leave it at that as I don't want to hijack the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Walker Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Nick, As much as I'm not a great fan of HKS electronics (I make an exception to the HKS EVC 5) a properly tuned Fcon 5 is a powerful peice of kit. I know of a Skyline running one that runs high 9s lows 10s, has 900hp and is a hell of a peice of kit - it uses that alone for boost/timing and fuel issues. The AVC-R, I've had one before (3 years ago at least) and wouldn't have one again. I do sell them, put I always point out the solenoid is the weak point of the system. I would rather have a Blitz unit over it any day. Obviously theres the cost issue on boost controllers, however boost spikes from a bleed valve (which they are prone for) and you can can kiss you engine goodbye. I also like the fact that most EBC take into account air temp when regulating boost, as normally a bleed valve will run way more boost when its cold than hot. Theres a few other reasons, cockpit adjustability, boost mapping, specific gear boost levels etc etc. Gaz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Originally posted by Gaz Walker Nick, As much as I'm not a great fan of HKS electronics (I make an exception to the HKS EVC 5) a properly tuned Fcon 5 is a powerful peice of kit. I know of a Skyline running one that runs high 9s lows 10s, has 900hp and is a hell of a peice of kit - it uses that alone for boost/timing and fuel issues. Gaz. That's the problem, who can map it properly? AFAIK Tdi have the most experience with the FCON but by the time you've paid them to map it you may as well have gone for a proper ECU IMO. The features offered by boost controllers sound great in theory and I know many people praise the Blitz unit but as they say, once bitten twice shy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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