anthonyj Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 I'm about to put UK injectors onto my J-Spec (already have FMIC, Walbro pump, SBCID, full de-cat etc) as a starting point for some further modifications . Has anyone done this on a car with the standard J-Spec ECU? If so, does it run OK or is it pretty nasty? Some people seem to say it is a disaster whereas others say the ECU adapts pretty well and everything settles down (until you unplug the battery;)). My next question is, if I were to "augment" the ECU then what should I replace it with? It looks like the favourites are the EManage and the SAFC. I was very tempted by the EManage, but several people I've talked to say it is a complete pig to map. So I'd value anyone's thoughts and opinions on the best way to proceed - especially from people that have them installed or know people that map them!!! Obviously, the long-term goal is to upgrade the turbos at some point - probably looking for the smallest single I could get so I'm not looking for big power but the best driveability. (I guess there is a whole other thread on whether going single completely destroys the driveability of the automatic but I'm still waiting for someone to offer to take me out for a spin in a single turbo'd auto so I can make my own mind up;)). If anyone has any thoughts, I'd love to hear them!! Ta, Anthony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 The eManage is a much more superior unit to the SAFC and seems to be reasonable value for money to boot - the mapping might be tricky but there are a growing number of willing tuners who know the uinit now so it's just a case of finding one near you. The SAFC will probably do the job but the eManage will do it better IMO because it offers more mapping points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 The SAFC will do the job for 550's but an E-Manage will be a lot more future-proofed especially when you go single and have to tweak the ignition timing etc. I've played with the E-Manage software and it looks like a good interface. The unit has a clever way of getting around the limitations of the stock pressure sensor, allowing you to map accurately beyond that BUT it's this bit that makes your head hurt, so maybe that's why some people say it's difficult to map. -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 Originally posted by anthonyj I'm about to put UK injectors onto my J-Spec (already have FMIC, Walbro pump, SBCID, full de-cat etc) as a starting point for some further modifications . Has anyone done this on a car with the standard J-Spec ECU? If so, does it run OK or is it pretty nasty? Some people seem to say it is a disaster whereas others say the ECU adapts pretty well and everything settles down (until you unplug the battery;)). My next question is, if I were to "augment" the ECU then what should I replace it with? It looks like the favourites are the EManage and the SAFC. I was very tempted by the EManage, but several people I've talked to say it is a complete pig to map. So I'd value anyone's thoughts and opinions on the best way to proceed - especially from people that have them installed or know people that map them!!! Obviously, the long-term goal is to upgrade the turbos at some point - probably looking for the smallest single I could get so I'm not looking for big power but the best driveability. (I guess there is a whole other thread on whether going single completely destroys the driveability of the automatic but I'm still waiting for someone to offer to take me out for a spin in a single turbo'd auto so I can make my own mind up;)). If anyone has any thoughts, I'd love to hear them!! Ta, Anthony. You MUST do something, the only time bigger injectors MAY even work half correctly is at idle and cruise, as that is the only time any correction for the much greater fuel supply from a bigger injector flowing more fuel for a given opening time pulse can occur. The stock ecu runs in "closed loop" at these points, reading the fuel mixture from the O2 sensor in the exhaust. Even this correction is dodgy as ecus are mapped to correct say +- 10%, if the O2 sesnor tells the ecu to correct more than this, (which may well be the case with bigger injectors) the ecu may well fall back on a pre written "get you home" map. I suspect only the man that wrote the ecu software and can diassemble it can say for sure. What you REALLY need is a proper standalone ecu... Big money and hassle though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonyj Posted March 3, 2004 Author Share Posted March 3, 2004 Chris, thanks for the comments - it does make sense to me. Presumably that means that the ECU has to be changed at the same time as the injectors then? I know that the piggyback approach is less than ideal, but my plan was always to use it as a stepping stone that gives me enough flexibility for the immediate future. My main concern would be: is it safe to the engine? If the answer is "yes, but you won't get the same power / flexibility out of your mods" then I can accept the compromise - you do pretty much always get what you pay for after all!! In the future, if/when my stock turbos die, I at least have the capability of moving to some hybrids or a small single without having to shell out lots of cash on other bits & pieces first. The consensus does seem to be that the EManage is the better solution - in theory at least. What I need now is some practical evidence!!! Can anyone recommend a tuner who works with the EManage then? Or better yet - anyone got a car with an EManage in and working (especially an auto)?! At the moment, everyone says the EManage is better, but there seem to be more people out there saying I have an SAFC and it works well!!! Thanks, Anthony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 I can't see the point in fitting big injectors until such a time as other mods dictate you need them. If the engine runs mad rich, which it will without other control electronics or a mapped ECU, it may cause bore wash and destroy the bores, pistons and rings, and dilute the oil causing ultra high wear rates. Why not wait until you have assembled all your planned mod parts and fit them all at once with whatever ecu control you decide to use? Otherwise you will spend more time and money mapping than you will believe, mapping is best done once, properly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonyj Posted March 3, 2004 Author Share Posted March 3, 2004 Sage advice as ever ;-)!!! My thinking was based on concerns that running the stock turbos hard would cause them to lean out the existing fuelling from the standard injectors at the top end - especially in this cold weather. I guess the sane reply to that would be "don't run the stock turbos so hard then" ! How boring that would be !!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 There is aboslutely no point in trying to run stock turbos very hard, after 1.2 bar boost they are merely thrashing the air and running both too high an rpm for safety, as well as giving very diminishing returns in terms of air density figures. My findings have always been that the stock fuel system copes OK up to 1.2 bar, and if you want more power an elaborate upgrade path needs to be followed with a bigger pair of non sequentials or a single. Both involve an ECU change to soemthing mappable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonyj Posted March 3, 2004 Author Share Posted March 3, 2004 Hmm, I guess at the moment, the cold air is reducing this effect somewhat. The other day, I hit 1.3 bar and really felt the difference between that and 1.2. It was the surprising extra performance that made me check the boost in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 Originally posted by anthonyj My thinking was based on concerns that running the stock turbos hard would cause them to lean out the existing fuelling from the standard injectors at the top end - especially in this cold weather. With the exception of the FMIC, I run the same mods (uprated fuel pump etc) but have kept the standard J-spec injectors. When I took it along to Thor they had to lean the mixture out as it was running very rich across the scale. Therefore, IMHO, you should not be worried that you will be running lean at the top end with the new injectors but more concerned with running too rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 In theory the standard 440cc injectors should be good for approx 410BHP, with that in mind you will need new turbos first so not really an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonyj Posted March 3, 2004 Author Share Posted March 3, 2004 Wouldn't that be the theoretical limit if the injectors ran at 100% duty? I'm not sure what fuelling the standard ECU provides at what it considers to be "full boost". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 Dependant on fuel rail pressure really. You shouldn`t run injectors over 80% - 85% for long periods as they will get hot and could stick either open or closed, in any case its bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Originally posted by anthonyj Wouldn't that be the theoretical limit if the injectors ran at 100% duty? I'm not sure what fuelling the standard ECU provides at what it considers to be "full boost". I believe that the theoretical limit at 100% duty is 440bhp , wez threw in a safety margin . As an aside an S-AFC and Apexi ITC will do everything you want them too , Leon was running this set up at TOTB with no troubles at all !!! Dude:flame Dev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Originally posted by Chris Wilson There is aboslutely no point in trying to run stock turbos very hard, after 1.2 bar boost they are merely thrashing the air and running both too high an rpm for safety, as well as giving very diminishing returns in terms of air density figures. My findings have always been that the stock fuel system copes OK up to 1.2 bar, and if you want more power an elaborate upgrade path needs to be followed with a bigger pair of non sequentials or a single. Both involve an ECU change to soemthing mappable. I agree whole heartedly with Chris. If you look at the compressor map, it falls of the map at 1.3 bar, so all you will be generating is extra heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonyj Posted March 5, 2004 Author Share Posted March 5, 2004 I'm confused... Whilst I completely accept your comments and have no doubt that theoretically they are correct (even if I don't really understand the terminology ), this isn't bourne out in practice . Why then is my car quicker at 1.3 bar than at 1.2? Several other people with J-Specs have commented on the same thing - their cars are producing more boost and running quicker - surely we can't all be imagining it? It is definitely more obvious when it is cold. My initial assumption was that even though the turbos are heating the air a lot more, they are actually providing more pressure too - probably due to the cold dense air they are currently compressing (probably helped by FMIC?). On the other hand, are we basically seeing an opposite effect - i.e. because the air is colder, the turbo which normally produces 1.2 bar flat out, is now producing 1.3 (i.e. an 8% increase in air density). I'm not simply "chasing boost numbers" - I have no wish to run more boost simply for the sake of it, but if the performance is there then I'd like it :) - hence my next biggest concern over fuelling. Apologies also if the above theorising is a complete load of rubbish. I'm afraid I've never really been able to get my head around the complexities of turbo charging. I'm just trying to understand not irritate :)!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Originally posted by anthonyj I'm confused... Whilst I completely accept your comments and have no doubt that theoretically they are correct (even if I don't really understand the terminology ), this isn't bourne out in practice . Why then is my car quicker at 1.3 bar than at 1.2? Several other people with J-Specs have commented on the same thing - their cars are producing more boost and running quicker - surely we can't all be imagining it? It is definitely more obvious when it is cold. My initial assumption was that even though the turbos are heating the air a lot more, they are actually providing more pressure too - probably due to the cold dense air they are currently compressing (probably helped by FMIC?). On the other hand, are we basically seeing an opposite effect - i.e. because the air is colder, the turbo which normally produces 1.2 bar flat out, is now producing 1.3 (i.e. an 8% increase in air density). I'm not simply "chasing boost numbers" - I have no wish to run more boost simply for the sake of it, but if the performance is there then I'd like it :) - hence my next biggest concern over fuelling. Apologies also if the above theorising is a complete load of rubbish. I'm afraid I've never really been able to get my head around the complexities of turbo charging. I'm just trying to understand not irritate :)!!! My personal thoughts are that running more than 1.3-4 Bar is definatly quicker than 1.2 bar , likewise 1.6 is even quicker still but prob only over short distances ie 1/4 mile or on overtakes , i'll try a few settings at woodbridge and we will see , i can prob get it down to around 1.25 so we will turn it up from there to maybe 1.6 ++ Dude:flame Dev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 It may generate slightly more power, but the efficiency drops right off, so you are generating heat, which in turn needs extra cooling, which if not present causes detonation. I really don't think it's worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Originally posted by Terry S It may generate slightly more power, but the efficiency drops right off, so you are generating heat, which in turn needs extra cooling, which if not present causes detonation. I really don't think it's worthwhile. We will see at Woodbridge !!!! Dude :flame Dev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonyj Posted March 6, 2004 Author Share Posted March 6, 2004 Dude -- I think you'll agree that it is widely acknowledged by the real experts that silver j-spec aerotops are the fastest model of Supra to start with!!!! :) :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by dude We will see at Woodbridge !!!! Dude :flame Dev I know mate and I am sure you'll do well, but I still think you'd be better off lowing the boost to 1.3 and adding timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 Yea but i need you to sit in the car with the det cans on and set up the ITC . Dude:flame Dev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 Listen, turn the boost down before you blow the turbo's:innocent: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 Originally posted by Terry S Listen, turn the boost down before you blow the turbo's:innocent: :D Where's that bolt... Wheres the door.. Damn horse! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonyj Posted March 6, 2004 Author Share Posted March 6, 2004 Or blow the turbos and get bigger one(s)!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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