michael Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 (I've searched and found some info but not all the stuff I want) I'm toying with the idea of hybrids for my '94 UK Auto but was hoping that people with them could offer me feedback on how their cars feel "before and after" and maybe some dyno plot comparisons? I've only contacted Turbo Technics so far and I'm waiting for them to get back to me with prices and specs - does anyone have any suggestions for alternative suppliers other than Miami Rice and JPS (was planning to contact both soon for details - feel free to post them here if you are listening ). I have a few questions: 1. Would I see any real gains with hybrids or will I just be able to run less boost for the same kind of power? (I currently only have twin decat pipes, a NuR Spec and Iridium plugs) 2. Are the hybrids likely to introduce more lag or help out in that area? 3. Given that I currently have a bit of overfuelling as standard can I still run 1.2 bar and reap the rewards of the turbos flowing more air? 4. Costs - cash is an issue and while I want to do things as cheapy as possible I don't want to cut any corners - what sort of money am I likely to be looking at for hybrids? Around £1500 plus fitting? 5. If my UK turbos are to the spec below what would hybrids be? Turbine Size - 52mm/44mm Compressor Size - 58mm/39mm Turbine material - Steel Scroll area (mm^2) - 740 A/R ratio - 0.53 Which areas do they change and what effect does changing each bit have on power / spool etc? 6. Do hybrids generally come with uprated actuators? 7. Have I missed anything obvious other than the seach button? Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Cargill Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Originally posted by mcanny 2. Are the hybrids likely to introduce more lag or help out in that area? 4. Costs - cash is an issue and while I want to do things as cheapy as possible I don't want to cut any corners - what sort of money am I likely to be looking at for hybrids? Around £1500 plus fitting? I've got a J spec car with stage 3 hybrids. There seems to be a little less torque at 3k on the autobox but when no2 comes on it feels much stronger. Can't say I noticed any lag difference, but the car was off the road for over 3 months so there may have been some things I didn't pick up on.No power figures for you. When I got mine off Leon last year he told me he was just about to put them up to £1900 + VAT - that's not fitted, just supplying them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Usmann A Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Oh and that doesnt include setting up costs aswell .... ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted February 15, 2004 Author Share Posted February 15, 2004 Originally posted by Usmann A Oh and that doesnt include setting up costs aswell .... ... What needs setting up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted February 15, 2004 Author Share Posted February 15, 2004 Originally posted by Steve Cargill I've got a J spec car with stage 3 hybrids. There seems to be a little less torque at 3k on the autobox but when no2 comes on it feels much stronger. Can't say I noticed any lag difference, but the car was off the road for over 3 months so there may have been some things I didn't pick up on.No power figures for you. When I got mine off Leon last year he told me he was just about to put them up to £1900 + VAT - that's not fitted, just supplying them. Mmm - less torque is highly undesirable, it's something my car already suffers compared with cars that have similar mods so I was really hoping to address that. Interesting feedback though, Leon's seem expensive compared with other figures I've seen quoted on here - any reason why? Are they special in any way that the others aren't? Given the cost of the units and fitting etc a couple of extra hundred isn't too significant in the whole scheme of things but only if it gains me something the others don't offer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supragal Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Slight hijack here- what is the definition of 'stages' of turbos? Is there some kind of guidelines used for what distinguishes them? Surely to run hyrbids properly you'll need all kinda of extra stuff- FMIC, AFC, (you've already got 550 injectors), fuel pump?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Cargill Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Originally posted by mcanny Mmm - less torque is highly undesirable, it's something my car already suffers compared with cars that have similar mods so I was really hoping to address that. As I said, it's subjective and could be more a case of not as much gain as higher up so it feels slower, but there is definatly a lack of go at 3k RPM. Driving along, squeeze it for a bit more, the revs go up and it pulls a little even on 3/4 throttle. After the revs build higher or it kicks down it flies. Originally posted by Supragal Slight hijack here- what is the definition of 'stages' of turbos? Is there some kind of guidelines used for what distinguishes them? Surely to run hyrbids properly you'll need all kinda of extra stuff- FMIC, AFC, (you've already got 550 injectors), fuel pump?? I think the stages are an arbitary number each person makes up, there isn't a hard definition. I've got an uprated pump and an FSE with stock 440 injectors. It's recomended I keep the boost down to 16psi with that setup. My intercooler has also seen better days which won't be helping. Depends how wild you want to go. I got them as at the time they were just a little more than stock replacments after blowing mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Usmann A Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 What needs setting up? The boost and fuel levels. Your looking at £400-£600 to setup the boost controller I reacon hybrids will at lteast cost you £3000 fitted, not including cams,safc. BC, FP, FMIC, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supragal Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Originally posted by Steve Cargill I think the stages are an arbitary number each person makes up, there isn't a hard definition. I've got an uprated pump and an FSE with stock 440 injectors. It's recomended I keep the boost down to 16psi with that setup. My intercooler has also seen better days which won't be helping. Depends how wild you want to go. Interesting. So I could claim to have stage 3 turbos and need no proof at all? even if someone took them apart. Whats 16psi in bar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Usmann A Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Well, my dads car made 378hp at the hubs, thats straigh from JPS 's tuning. Then once gone to THOR it cam out with 444hp at the hubs. So theres the factor of getting it running properly twice. Once roughly from the tuner, other from a proper diagnositc comapny THOR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Cargill Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Originally posted by Supragal Interesting. So I could claim to have stage 3 turbos and need no proof at all? even if someone took them apart. Whats 16psi in bar? Mmmm, youngsters!!! It's just over 1 bar. To find out about the turbo mods I think you have to strip them and measure all the inside bits (sorry about the overly technical answer) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jez sutherland Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Micahel, I've got a UK spec TT 6spd and had Leon's (JPS) hybrids fitted before Christmas. As far as I'm concerned, there is no noticable lag in no.1 turbo. Steve may be experiencing lag as he moved from ceramic to steel turbos - which any regular reader of this board knows are laggy by comparison (the main part of the j-spec vs UK 'debate'). At standard boost, the torque curve is still straight - so there is not a 'massive hit' from no.2. However, this changes as you up the boost. Usmann is right about getting thigs set up right - some sort of rolling road is good for checking your fueling at various boost levels. Here again, you have an advantage because you have a UK spec - you already have big injectors and a fuelling map to match. There should be no need for an SAFC or anything like that if all is well. You will need a decent boost controller (I recommend the Blitz SBC ID) to get to higher boost levels - and this is where getting your fuelling checked is critical. This will cost you 400-600 quid fully installed and set up with 1 hour of rolling road - I can personally recommend Thor for this. I can also highly recommend Leon and JPS for the hybrids and fitting - they are excellent IMHO. Leon is a top bloke, and he and all of the staff there seem to know there stuff - and they specialise in the Supe. Also, he is not as expensive as you might think - I suggest you call him to discuss! Anyway, I hope this was of use. On a final note, someone on this board has described UKs on hybrids as 'horrid'. This worried me about getting mine done - but turned out in my experience to be nonsense. All, obviously my humble opinion Jezza:innocent: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Cargill Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Originally posted by Jez sutherland As far as I'm concerned, there is no noticable lag in no.1 turbo. Steve may be experiencing lag as he moved from ceramic to steel turbos - which any regular reader of this board knows are laggy by comparison (the main part of the j-spec vs UK 'debate'). Jez, it's not lag I'm describing. This feels like a big long flatspot. I'll try and make it to a meet and everyone can play and feel the differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylinelee Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 £3000 for just a little bit more power:eek: get a single or a bigger set of twins an stop faffing about, ive seen quite a few turbo kits on ebay motors lately for next to nothing. seems so much money to get hybrids ???????? why Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONKEYmark Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Originally posted by Steve Cargill When I got mine off Leon last year he told me he was just about to put them up to £1900 + VAT - that's not fitted, just supplying them. £1900+ vat fooking hell they must be made out of solid gold. you could get a small single setup that will run on stock fueling. if you look around you could get a second hand turbo kit for small money. i know you will need other things too. just depends how far you want to go. you only have to look at the gtr with there turbos, they have loads for sale. lee off here just sold his nizmo n1 turbos for £500 and they rated for bigish power. he has just bought a big single turbo. a cheaper option would be to buy a pair of second hand turbos. i know you taking a chance buying second hand turbos. but uk turbos seem to be that bit stronger. get yourself on ebay. michael how far do you want to go today as bill gates would say uali do you and your dad regret not going the single turbo route Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_TC Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Hasn't Gaz got a single kit for £1250 at the moment + a SP67 (for example) which with the current exchange rate around £700, there we go bingo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Having just gone through this process I can offer some first hand experience on these 1. Would I see any real gains with hybrids or will I just be able to run less boost for the same kind of power Gains on hybrids really come at 1.2+BAR - although at this boost they will produce more power due to their size They do pull more strongly from the second turbo up - this with a SBC-ID controller set at 50% 2. Are the hybrids likely to introduce more lag or help out in that area? I have wacked up my SBC now so that the inherrent 'UK' style lag has been reduced - having to get used to that after my J spec turbos! No real difference apparently to stock UK spec 3. Given that I currently have a bit of overfuelling as standard can I still run 1.2 bar and reap the rewards of the turbos flowing more air? This really depends on the whole set up - you really must visit Thor and get it dyno'red on the machine 4. Costs - cash is an issue and while I want to do things as cheapy as possible I don't want to cut any corners - what sort of money am I likely to be looking at for hybrids? Around £1500 plus fitting? Through Miami-rice you can get a set of stage three hybrids for £1600 inc gaskets (gaskets are approx £100 - do NOT use old gaskets!) Fitting approx £400 down at Dude's Thor dyno £150 - depending on your set-up - and you must get the fuelling checked just to make sure -but shoudn't be a problem. 5. If my UK turbos are to the spec below what would hybrids be? Turbine Size - 52mm/44mm Compressor Size - 58mm/39mm Turbine material - Steel Scroll area (mm^2) - 740 A/R ratio - 0.53 Which areas do they change and what effect does changing each bit have on power / spool etc? No one will normally give out every detail of their turbos (for some reason in tuning circles!) but there's really nothing too complicated about it Ours have Steel Internals (naturally) 360° Thrust Bearings VSR Balanced Guaranteed Machined larger (+7 mm!!)Wastegate and Button (accept nothing less and this reduces the dreaded boost creep!!) I cannot see you getting a single set up for this money (no matter how optomistic - there are just so many add on for a single) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONKEYmark Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 have read a few of michaels posts and he looks into all options and wants the best for his hard earned money, just like we all do. im sure michael will make the right choice. lee was showing me some second hand turbo kits on ebay for $1000, everybody has different ideas of what they want to aim for. when you think of it you get a lot for your money with say a small budget kit. external wastegate,downpipes mid pipes. with hybrids you get a bit more power and stronger than stock turbos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Originally posted by Paul E Through Miami-rice you can get a set of stage three hybrids for £1600 inc gaskets (gaskets are approx £100 - do NOT use old gaskets!) No one will normally give out every detail of their turbos (for some reason in tuning circles!) but there's really nothing too complicated about it Ours have Steel Internals (naturally) 360° Thrust Bearings VSR Balanced Guaranteed Machined larger (+7 mm!!)Wastegate and Button (accept nothing less and this reduces the dreaded boost creep!!) Aha, given your openness with turbo specs, a refreshing change, can you give us the specs for your stage 1 and 2 hybrids as well? That would help answer Rosie's question about the stages. I think the specs are stuff to do with wheel sizes, a/r's, vane angles and design, that sort of stuff, as well as the bearings and materials used. Oh, and the actual performance differences between the stages, like max efficient boost levels and cfm rates. I wouldn't have thought that there could be any subdivisions of hybrids in this fashion as the difference between stock and hybrid, while definitely there and worthwhile, isn't something you would bother dividing up, what, four times? I think stage 4 the highest one I've heard bandied about. 7mm wastegate enlargement sounds hairy, what with someone in another thread saying there was only a 3mm lip to machine out I assume that's 7mm in diameter but still, that goes beyond the 6mm of material available. I'm no good at metal cutting stuff so I'm asking what's what I cannot see you getting a single set up for this money (no matter how optomistic - there are just so many add on for a single) Well, you'd need an FMIC or improved SMIC, injectors, resistor pack maybe, fuel pump, and maybe an air fuel controller whether you went for single turbo or hybrids, so that's two grand out the door. So I'm in agreement with Paul here - there is more to a single turbo kit than meets the eye. That's what I've found anyway -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONKEYmark Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 ian seems like lots of supra owners on stock turbos or hybrids end up upgrading fuel pump , injectors, safc, intercoolers to make running more boost safer. its not down to a single. i know what you mean about having to get lots of items when you going for more power. people will make there own minds up you can do it on a budget if you shop around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonball Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Originally posted by Ian C Aha, given your openness with turbo specs, a refreshing change, can you give us the specs for your stage 1 and 2 hybrids as well? That would help answer Rosie's question about the stages. I think the specs are stuff to do with wheel sizes, a/r's, vane angles and design, that sort of stuff, as well as the bearings and materials used. Oh, and the actual performance differences between the stages, like max efficient boost levels and cfm rates. I wouldn't have thought that there could be any subdivisions of hybrids in this fashion as the difference between stock and hybrid, while definitely there and worthwhile, isn't something you would bother dividing up, what, four times? I think stage 4 the highest one I've heard bandied about. LOL! Too bloody late (or early) to go into this now! I dont have every single spec on each stage to hand Stage 1 = Lowest (Pseudo Stock) Stage 2 = Stage 3 = Stage 4 = Highest (but too much lag and not recommended) Often these 'stage' discriptions are arbitory used by the individual turbo maker to express an 'upgrade' or ' expected performance increase' from the previous version It is these upgrades and specs per stage that are jealously guarded by the maker (obviously other turbo makers want to get their hands on a succesful 'blend' etc 7mm wastegate enlargement sounds hairy, what with someone in another thread saying there was only a 3mm lip to machine out I assume that's 7mm in diameter but still, that goes beyond the 6mm of material available. I'm no good at metal cutting stuff so I'm asking what's what The metal is there to safely cut - the problem was that the stock button was too small to fit over an enlarged hole - hence another has to be manufactured Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted February 16, 2004 Author Share Posted February 16, 2004 Originally posted by Usmann A The boost and fuel levels. Your looking at £400-£600 to setup the boost controller I reacon hybrids will at lteast cost you £3000 fitted, not including cams,safc. BC, FP, FMIC, etc. I appreciate the need to get it on the rollers again (I'm very keen on RRs - been on 4 since buying the car last year) and would budget for a bit of time wth Thor once the turbos were on but given Pete's ability I'd be suprised if it required any more than an hour. Your price sounds high, you don't have as many favours owed by your mechanic obviously Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 TBH if you are looking for the best Power/Pound ratio a single kit makes an awful lot of sense. Hybrids are a good solution if you have blown your turbo's and want to retain the stock look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted February 16, 2004 Author Share Posted February 16, 2004 I really wasn't ready for this amount of feedback, I shou;d have stayed up later Originally posted by Jez sutherland Micahel, I've got a UK spec TT 6spd and had Leon's (JPS) hybrids fitted before Christmas. A nice Christmas gift As far as I'm concerned, there is no noticable lag in no.1 turbo. Steve may be experiencing lag as he moved from ceramic to steel turbos - which any regular reader of this board knows are laggy by comparison (the main part of the j-spec vs UK 'debate'). I guess any increase in lag is going to be more noticable for a J-Spec owner, the current lag on my UK is acceptable but it would be nice to get rid of it - *dreams* - it's good to hear that no.1 is OK though, the car is already a pain to launch so anything else that makes that worse wouldn't be on my shopping list. At standard boost, the torque curve is still straight - so there is not a 'massive hit' from no.2. However, this changes as you up the boost. I suspect I'd be back in there at 1.2 bar, maybe with the addition of some WI until I can afford a decent IC. Usmann is right about getting thigs set up right - some sort of rolling road is good for checking your fueling at various boost levels. Here again, you have an advantage because you have a UK spec - you already have big injectors and a fuelling map to match. There should be no need for an SAFC or anything like that if all is well. Yeah I'm currently over fuelling like a bugger, I was going to address this with an eManage but I'll hang fire on that now, it'll be going back on the dyno again as a matter of course though, I like getting dyno plots You will need a decent boost controller (I recommend the Blitz SBC ID) to get to higher boost levels - and this is where getting your fuelling checked is critical. This will cost you 400-600 quid fully installed and set up with 1 hour of rolling road - I can personally recommend Thor for this. I've got the AVC-R and had it fitted and set up at Thor so I can save a bit there byt just having the setup checked again. I can also highly recommend Leon and JPS for the hybrids and fitting - they are excellent IMHO. Leon is a top bloke, and he and all of the staff there seem to know there stuff - and they specialise in the Supe. Also, he is not as expensive as you might think - I suggest you call him to discuss! Unfortunately distance is an issue for me, I have a very trusted mechanic who is fairly local to me so I have that part covered, I just need the actual units sorting out really. I'd love to live down south sometimes, all the talent seems to be in that direction Anyway, I hope this was of use. On a final note, someone on this board has described UKs on hybrids as 'horrid'. This worried me about getting mine done - but turned out in my experience to be nonsense. This is why I raise questions again despite seeing stuff in the archives, I like to get as much feedback and research in as possible Thanks for your input, I appreciate you taking the time to pass on your thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael Posted February 16, 2004 Author Share Posted February 16, 2004 Originally posted by MONKEYmark £1900+ vat fooking hell they must be made out of solid gold. you could get a small single setup that will run on stock fueling. if you look around you could get a second hand turbo kit for small money. i know you will need other things too. just depends how far you want to go. you only have to look at the gtr with there turbos, they have loads for sale. lee off here just sold his nizmo n1 turbos for £500 and they rated for bigish power. he has just bought a big single turbo. a cheaper option would be to buy a pair of second hand turbos. i know you taking a chance buying second hand turbos. but uk turbos seem to be that bit stronger. I quite like the twin sequential setup, a nice single would be good but I'm not sure I want to go that far - I was fairly happy with the performance of the car anyway. get yourself on ebay. I've been having a bit of a look around but can't see anything juicy at the moment. michael how far do you want to go today as bill gates would say My aims have always been quite low, a genuine 500bhp with a lot of torque would be nice, I don't really feel the need to go beyond that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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