chilli Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 here's one for you... was out fitting rltc today and out of the blue an old friend came by. My last car was the Lancia Delta Integrale and although now I've sold that and got the supra, he still has his. we were chatting and talking in general and he tells me that some guys somewhere (in greece or something) have been running 1000bhp integrale engines. hmmm well I thought to myself 'anything is possible' if you completely rebuild from the ground up - but afterwards I got to thinking - some things are not just not possible (for example can't be rebuild or uprated). this engine is basically a turbo 2l 4cyl 16v engine, the block goes way back before the integrale iteslf, only the head is new for the model. even at a paltry 270 bhp my one suffered a cracked head! and ultimately only lasted 3-4 years from complete rebuild to needing another! ok so you can replace pistons, con rods etc but you can't replace blocks and heads with uprated ones (unless you have seriously 'money no object' deep pockets to commission the one off building of them!). Even then if it is stressed beyond its design it's not going to last long (=very expensive!). Even the transmission is not that strong and has been known to go wrong at normal power levels, let alone at 3 or 4 times more power. Just wondering how much fact and how much pub talk there is in there. Claiming 1000bhp and having a geniune 1000bhp are two different things. Claiming it's reliable and having proper reliability are also two very different things. Personally I think going much above 300bhp on those cars is pushing the envelope where everything starts to become unreliable and needs costly uprating. so, 1000 bhp from an engine that originally came to life in some fiats of the 70s iirc possble, likely, costly, reliable? even if it is, I still wouldn't go beyond 300-350 bhp on one of these, great cars but strenght and reliability are not two woulds typically uttered in the same sentance as Lancia! (unfortunately) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Could be bs could be fact. I dont know for sure, but if they spend enough money strengthening the block and all the internals to take a massive turbo its possible. I mean they drag race and generate silly HP out of Civics and now Evos in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted July 16, 2006 Author Share Posted July 16, 2006 yeah that is true, guess it depends how deep someones pockets are. this is a private owner as far as I understand, not a racing team with sponsoring - so budgets must have some finite limits though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bondango Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Do a search for "Luca Lodi" heres his car... http://www.comarsport.com/CM_Pagine/F3C9743E4D744077B427F7270E0951A9.asp Think he runs 850+bhp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucifer Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 ANYTHING is possible if you have the money. Just look at F1 15 years ago................15 years ago! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 There was a vid on here of a group B raly integrale, supercharged twin turbo, that's gotta be pushing some power? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted July 17, 2006 Author Share Posted July 17, 2006 yes I know for racing they made some serious power - the Delta S4 rally car was both super and turbo charged 1.8l making crazy power. But these are racing cars with massive budgets - for an individual I thought this would be out of budget. Some people have big budgets I guess and maybe some of those racing parts are still available. still for me that must be the kind of racing engine (just like F1/rally) where you need to rebuild it every few hundred or thousand miles. Can't see it hanging together for the long term like some of the built supra engines. So it must be very expensive to run this power and rebuild all the time - that's what I mean by having deep pockets like a racing team where regular rebuilds are taken forgranted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaymdee Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Hi Chilli mate. I was at Castle Combe at the weekend at the Rally Day up there. I was on the Lancia Club stand along with 40 other Integrales. These 2 guys had a seriously modded Grale, kicking out 397BHP crank. This engine had all bespoke parts, which the guys (one was ex-Lancia mechanic) had designed and had built. It had an uprated turbo running 1.5Bar and MOTEC ECU, as they were re-doing the map between runs. They had replaced everything on and in the engine, money not really an issue, and I'm sure if it was possible and worth it they could have gone for more power. Totally road driveable too. One bloke also took an original Carlos Sainz Group A rally winiing car, and tracked it!! I recon you may be able to get 1000BHP but only for a few seconds before...BANG (I got overtaken by Miko Hirvonnen driving a Focus WRC - fcuk that things fast!! he slid it round the next corner on one rear wheel ) J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spidermonkey Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 I reckon its possible, when i had my old 'grale, there were some 500-700 bhp ones kicking about (mainly America), fantastic car bit fragile though:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 Hi Chilli mate. I was at Castle Combe at the weekend at the Rally Day up there. I was on the Lancia Club stand along with 40 other Integrales. These 2 guys had a seriously modded Grale, kicking out 397BHP crank. This engine had all bespoke parts, which the guys (one was ex-Lancia mechanic) had designed and had built. It had an uprated turbo running 1.5Bar and MOTEC ECU, as they were re-doing the map between runs. They had replaced everything on and in the engine, money not really an issue, and I'm sure if it was possible and worth it they could have gone for more power. Totally road driveable too. One bloke also took an original Carlos Sainz Group A rally winiing car, and tracked it!! I recon you may be able to get 1000BHP but only for a few seconds before...BANG (I got overtaken by Miko Hirvonnen driving a Focus WRC - fcuk that things fast!! he slid it round the next corner on one rear wheel ) J that must have been a fun day yeah 300-400 maybe even 500 bhp I can appreciate is possible and realistic from what I remember circa 300bhp is fairly easy (remapped chip to up the boost gets you from ~220 to 270 and new exhaust manifold get you another 20bhp so that is approx 300bhp at ~1.2 bar boost). I personally wouldn't take the stock engine (pistons, con rods and crank) above 300bhp. I went through two engines at that sort of power or less! More power than that and it's just waiting to go bang. so with rebuilt internals I'm sure you can get close to or crack the 400bhp limit, but going much beyond that must be race type stress levels where you rebuild/replace the engine after each event - hardly a street car then. Even if you could make the engine hold together at 1000bhp I'd like to know how long the transmission would hold up, I broke various bits on mine at much lower power levels! thanks for confirming things anyway who was there? was it any of the well known integrale tuners like Keith from Auto-Integrale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 1000bhp/l is possible so 500bhp/l should be childs play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted July 28, 2006 Author Share Posted July 28, 2006 1000bhp/l is possible so 500bhp/l should be childs play lol I know that level of tune is possible... but it depends what you start with. i.e. formula 1 (and bike) engines get massive power per cc because they are able to rev to crazy rpms (and in the case of F1 are deliberately slightly overstressed). not quite the same with a domestic engine whose block started life coping with probably sub 100bhp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 it is possible, but not probable. Just because the block is old, doesn't automatically mean that it is also weak. Quite often it goes the other way. Weight and mpg were not hot issues back then. If you fit really low compression pistons and inject the right sort of fluids at the right time then you can get astronomical amounts of power for short bursts. ...at the *crank*. how the transmission will feel about it is another issue. However, I wouldn't bet money one those rumours being based on hard facts. More like 'a friend of a friend' kind of sailors tales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bondango Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 yes I know for racing they made some serious power - the Delta S4 rally car was both super and turbo charged 1.8l making crazy power. But these are racing cars with massive budgets - massive power back in the 80's, but look how technolgy has changed in the tuning world, it has came on leaps and bounds but futhur more, its now affordable to the extent that it can be done better and a whole lot cheaper. Can you imagine how much it would have cost to build a mkiv TT in 1995 to push more than 500hp??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tattooman Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 Maybe those Greeks are running their car with 2x engines In Line maybe that's possible ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaymdee Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 that must have been a fun day who was there? was it any of the well known integrale tuners like Keith from Auto-Integrale? Yep, Keith was there with the yellow Gallo he's got. Don't think any other 'tuners' were there though. Was a good day. some very quick Evos (eg Norris) and a super fast Audi Quattro. Bloody wet when it rained though!! J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Need4Speed Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Here's a 1500 bhp 1500cc 4 cylinder engine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseys Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 here's one for you... was out fitting rltc today and out of the blue an old friend came by. My last car was the Lancia Delta Integrale and although now I've sold that and got the supra, he still has his. we were chatting and talking in general and he tells me that some guys somewhere (in greece or something) have been running 1000bhp integrale engines. hmmm well I thought to myself 'anything is possible' if you completely rebuild from the ground up - but afterwards I got to thinking - some things are not just not possible (for example can't be rebuild or uprated). this engine is basically a turbo 2l 4cyl 16v engine, the block goes way back before the integrale iteslf, only the head is new for the model. even at a paltry 270 bhp my one suffered a cracked head! and ultimately only lasted 3-4 years from complete rebuild to needing another! ok so you can replace pistons, con rods etc but you can't replace blocks and heads with uprated ones (unless you have seriously 'money no object' deep pockets to commission the one off building of them!). Even then if it is stressed beyond its design it's not going to last long (=very expensive!). Even the transmission is not that strong and has been known to go wrong at normal power levels, let alone at 3 or 4 times more power. Just wondering how much fact and how much pub talk there is in there. Claiming 1000bhp and having a geniune 1000bhp are two different things. Claiming it's reliable and having proper reliability are also two very different things. Personally I think going much above 300bhp on those cars is pushing the envelope where everything starts to become unreliable and needs costly uprating. so, 1000 bhp from an engine that originally came to life in some fiats of the 70s iirc possble, likely, costly, reliable? even if it is, I still wouldn't go beyond 300-350 bhp on one of these, great cars but strenght and reliability are not two woulds typically uttered in the same sentance as Lancia! (unfortunately) Maybe they're running a tri-flux version. The lancia guys are quite nuts, one after all built the Lancia Yintegrale ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagman Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I know of a MINI cooper S engine that ran 430bhp on stock internals -then the head flew off through the bonnet due to head bolts stripping-but the bottom end did not fail! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caseys Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I asked my friend who's a complete integrale nut, his kit car stratos will be on the road next week too Here's what he said: Yes - t'is true an Italian tuning specialist who'se name i forget at this moment did it. (none of the usuals Mangoletsi / Arbarth / Squadra Corsa) They were using the tri-flux engine out of the S4 which is super-charged and then turbo charged as well (low end torque and then top end power) plus they ran it on above average octane fuel. I used to have a clip of this car doing the 0-102Kmph - in 2.94 seconds it was mental but they had to rebuild the engine after 80Kms or something stupid like that. The S4 (old Grp B rally car) ran anywhere between 535 and 850BHP depending on which rally it was participating in. The Stradale version of the car (street version) had an ECU with two settings "Tame 260 BHP" which was a handful and "Rocketship 400 BHP" - which would pull your eyeballs out the back of your head as it had so much grip and low end power. I've had a go in a Stradale S4 - its as close as I've been to being in a Grp B car. The after running 850 BHP the engines did obviously require rebuilding quite regularly !! Ah the good old days of unrestricted rally cars........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 I know of a MINI cooper S engine that ran 430bhp on stock internals -then the head flew off through the bonnet due to head bolts stripping-but the bottom end did not fail! It stripped the threads of all headbolts and it didn't blow the gasket first? How weird is that!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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