Project Future Motorsports Supra......

[Lucifer]

game on.....as long as your driving your car

 

That will not be a problem. Set a date in the winter for the day in the Summer.

 

Pinks means Pinks mind. I think well get TV coverage for this!

[Guest Bijal]

This sounds like its gonna be good. What kinda price is the TO4Z turbo, is it a mega buck's item ?, an do they fit onto any single turbo manifold ?. (I might be being a little dumb here) .

 

send me an email for prices and i am sure i can make you smile (or cry)

 

and any other techie questions you may have.

 

no need to feel dumb, this thread is for everyone to see and learn new things and experiences.

 

our aim is to share the knowledge and experience we have and hopefuly it will become a very useful and knowledgable thread for others to see.

 

as long as we stay on the subject then thats fine.

 

[Guest Terry S]

i thought you said you know all you need to know? no need for me to waste my time pointing you in any direction.

 

 

Absolutely, no tech info was ever provided to back up the superiority claims, just a lot of hot air. I even had a PM from a Garrett main agent telling me I was correct. Please don't consider it a waste of time, and point me to some actual proof that they are not readily available Garrett models with expensive housings bolted on Bijal. Educate me on what is so different about the HKS wheels, shafts, & cartridge. I will

gladly apologise if I am proved wrong, but as yet this is not the case.

 

http://Http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3844247&postcount=47

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4233537&postcount=65

 

First link is Larry from SP, second is Geoff from Full Race.

[Lucifer]

Interesting

[Guest Terry S]

 

Helpful Martin - sorry see you edited your response.

 

This is the thread that I assume Bijal was referring to:

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=37761&page=8&highlight=GT4294R

[Lucifer]

Helpful Martin - sorry see you edited your response.

 

This is the thread that I assume Bijal was referring to:

http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?t=37761&page=8&highlight=GT4294R

 

 

Yeah I couldn't find the popcorn

 

Dont worry Terry, the car will be mine next year

[Guest Bijal]

Absolutely, no tech info was ever provided to back up the superiority claims, just a lot of hot air. I even had a PM from a Garrett main agent telling me I was correct. Please don't consider it a waste of time, and point me to some actual proof that they are not readily available Garrett models with expensive housings bolted on Bijal. Educate me on what is so different about the HKS wheels, shafts, & cartridge. I will

gladly apologise if I am proved wrong, but as yet this is not the case.

 

http://Http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3844247&postcount=47

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4233537&postcount=65

 

First link is Larry from SP, second is Geoff from Full Race.

 

why do you feel the need to appolgise terry? what for? unless you have an alterior motive?

 

in short, those tests on supra forums are STILL not feasable in any way...here are the reasons:

 

1. 2 different cars were used.

2. we dont know what cylinder balances were on each car to equalise the test, as we all know "no 2 same engines are the same".

3. both running TOTALY different ECU's.

4. tuning factor is a big question mark.

5. both cars were running different boost levels.

6. the garret turbo car was running 1.4bar and the hks turbo car was running 1.5bar, now from my knowledge i recall hks stating at one point the peak power and effeciancy on the hks t51r kai being 1.6bar. this means that although 1.6 bar is the turbos efficiancy, its going on the bases that if anymore boost is increased above 1.6bar then the "efficiancy" of the turbo is reduced according to boost, i.e, hottter air, surges, spool charecteristics etc. in theory the t51r kai can run 2.0bar of boost no problem but it might not be its peak power band. more boost doesnt mean more good horsepower.

 

now, reverting and relaying this information back to the hks to4z, consdering the to4z is a smaller turbo than the t51r kai, its efficiency levels will ALSO be lower than the t51r kai, hence maybe, thats MAYBE, its efficiancy would be better tested at 1.4bar of boost?

 

those theories are no different to theories that are classed as "hot air". those dyno figures are a waste of time due to the above factors.

 

in addition, air temps, exhaust sizes, down pipe sizes, intercooler type and size, spark plugs and manifolds all make a difference in those figures and their charecteristics.

 

on another note, this argument can go on for a long time, something you might have time for but i certainly dont. you might enjoy it, i certainly dont.

 

your opinion is your opinion, i will take the information out of it that is of use to me and throw away what is not.

 

what you do with my experience and knowledge sharing i frankly dont care.

 

you stick to garrett, i'll stick to hks.

 

it would be nice to go back to the thread topic and stay there for a change

[Guest Terry S]

why do you feel the need to appolgise terry? what for? unless you have an alterior motive?

 

in short, those tests on supra forums are STILL not feasable in any way...here are the reasons:

 

1. 2 different cars were used.

2. we dont know what cylinder balances were on each car to equalise the test, as we all know "no 2 same engines are the same".

3. both running TOTALY different ECU's.

4. tuning factor is a big question mark.

5. both cars were running different boost levels.

6. the garret turbo car was running 1.4bar and the hks turbo car was running 1.5bar, now from my knowledge i recall hks stating at one point the peak power and effeciancy on the hks t51r kai being 1.6bar. this means that although 1.6 bar is the turbos efficiancy, its going on the bases that if anymore boost is increased above 1.6bar then the "efficiancy" of the turbo is reduced according to boost, i.e, hottter air, surges, spool charecteristics etc. in theory the t51r kai can run 2.0bar of boost no problem but it might not be its peak power band. more boost doesnt mean more good horsepower.

 

now, reverting and relaying this information back to the hks to4z, consdering the to4z is a smaller turbo than the t51r kai, its efficiency levels will ALSO be lower than the t51r kai, hence maybe, thats MAYBE, its efficiancy would be better tested at 1.4bar of boost?

 

those theories are no different to theories that are classed as "hot air". those dyno figures are a waste of time due to the above factors.

 

in addition, air temps, exhaust sizes, down pipe sizes, intercooler type and size, spark plugs and manifolds all make a difference in those figures and their charecteristics.

 

on another note, this argument can go on for a long time, something you might have time for but i certainly dont. you might enjoy it, i certainly dont.

 

your opinion is your opinion, i will take the information out of it that is of use to me and throw away what is not.

 

what you do with my experience and knowledge sharing i frankly dont care.

 

you stick to garrett, i'll stick to hks.

 

it would be nice to go back to the thread topic and stay there for a change

 

 

Thanks Bijal, as always you swerve the actually technical question. What are the wheel differences, shaft, and cartridge, if you don't know, just say so. You stated that the HKS turbos are far superior, I would just like a bit of technical back up for the statement.

 

As for your reply above, I have no idea what you are rambling about. The links are purely to two well respected tuners simply stating that in their humble opinions, a T04Z is just a T67 P trim DBB with expensive housings. Sound familiar

 

Absolutely, no tech info was ever provided to back up the superiority claims, just a lot of hot air. I even had a PM from a Garrett main agent telling me I was correct. Please don't consider it a waste of time, and point me to some actual proof that they are not readily available Garrett models with expensive housings bolted on Bijal. Educate me on what is so different about the HKS wheels, shafts, & cartridge. I will

gladly apologise if I am proved wrong, but as yet this is not the case.

 

http://Http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3844247&postcount=47

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4233537&postcount=65

 

First link is Larry from SP, second is Geoff from Full Race.

[Soop Dogg]

Agreed Terry.

 

Sounds like lots of BS to me here too.

 

How can anyone hope to dispute the information in the posts you mention on SF without backup it up with ANY data whatsoever? (In fact the reply Bijal gave didn't seem to bear any relation to the posts on SF anyway - you're quite right - he was rambling!)

 

Bijal, what tests/comparisons are you aware of that you have yet to SHARE with us? (as you seem to be so big on 'knowledge sharing') Were those *cough* TESTS *cough* done under the sort of conditions that would give vaild results and a comparison about which we can all come to our own conclusions?

 

Sorry to be sarcastic, but at the start of this thread you promised all sorts about 'Tricks of the trade etc', 'Complete Suspension Setup, Suspension kit, Bushes, Anti Roll Bars etc.'

 

All I've seen you do so far is make sweeping claims like 'during testing at donnington we found the best setup on the suspension and tyre pressures'.

 

What does that tell us? Absolutely bugger all - that's what.

 

Come on, share all this knowledge and help us all out here!

[Guest Bijal]

Thanks Bijal, as always you swerve the actually technical question. What are the wheel differences, shaft, and cartridge, if you don't know, just say so. You stated that the HKS turbos are far superior, I would just like a bit of technical back up for the statement.

 

As for your reply above, I have no idea what you are rambling about. The links are purely to two well respected tuners simply stating that in their humble opinions, a T04Z is just a T67 P trim DBB with expensive housings. Sound familiar

 

technical details are good but on the other hand are useless if not tested acuratley, hence no need for me to know anymore further details of technicality if the test is not done accuratley. simple old fashion theory, regardless who the tuner is or how much respect they have or not.

 

like i said, i will ramble on about what i know and have experienced with the hks turbos and share that with others and have full respect to those who havent. this is MY opinion on MY experience. if that burns you so much for some reason then i am sorry to hear that.

 

i have said this so many times, if you ask garrett the the difference between the 2 brands and spec of turbos they will, i am sure say the garrreet based is the same and maybe better. and if you ask the same question to hks japan, then i am sure they will say that their design is much better.

 

so its a win - win situation or a lose - lose situation whichever way you put it.

 

we are end users and will NEVER know which turbo is better no matter who you ask the question to.

 

there will ALWAYS be biased advise, maybe someone who likes hks or maybe someone who hates hks. or maybe someone who doesnt like to see the premium prices on hks or maybe someone who can afford to spend the money on hks.

 

let it be.

[LeeT]

To be honest unless there was any hard evidence that HKS turbos are any different or better than Garrett turbos whats the point in spending the extra money on them. So far it is just talk and no proof. Im sorry but it would be Garrett for me every time.

[Guest Bijal]

Agreed Terry.

 

Sounds like lots of BS to me here too.

 

How can anyone hope to dispute the information in the posts you mention on SF without backup it up with ANY data whatsoever? (In fact the reply Bijal gave didn't seem to bear any relation to the posts on SF anyway - you're quite right - he was rambling!)

 

Bijal, what tests/comparisons are you aware of that you have yet to SHARE with us? (as you seem to be so big on 'knowledge sharing') Were those *cough* TESTS *cough* done under the sort of conditions that would give vaild results and a comparison about which we can all come to our own conclusions?

 

Sorry to be sarcastic, but at the start of this thread you promised all sorts about 'Tricks of the trade etc', 'Complete Suspension Setup, Suspension kit, Bushes, Anti Roll Bars etc.'

 

All I've seen you do so far is make sweeping claims like 'during testing at donnington we found the best setup on the suspension and tyre pressures'.

 

What does that tell us? Absolutely bugger all - that's what.

 

Come on, share all this knowledge and help us all out here!

 

all i am saying is NONE of us has had experience on these turbos TOGETHER and had a chance to test them, therefor a conclusion cannot be met between the 2 turbos in a controlled and equal environment test. that is the only way i can see myself admiting if my personal theory, i repeat, PERSONAL theory through experience to be wrong or corrected.

 

i personaly havent tested any turbos in any form of controlled environment, i dont see myself saying that anywhere, all i am saying is i prefer hks turbos...whats wrong with that?

 

i have listed OBVIOUSE clear differences to the SF test and found them to be not accurately done, no slating anyones tests or putting anyone down. just saying they were not done of equal measure so therefore its not accurate. whats wrong with that? you call that rambling?

 

the testing at donnington was not done recently, it was done back in april BEFORE we decided to venture towards an outright circuit car. the decision came when we found that if you put your mind to it the supra can actualy be a serious beast on the track compared to the 4wd cars. this is why we have been contemplating and planning for such a long time. And after some debated suspension setup and tyre choice and setup we found an excellent balance on the car that we were pleased with, very please. since then we were STILL not 100% with the options we had and decided to order a different suspension and try that. with the addtional suspension aids, we havent tested that yet and therfore cannot come to any sort of conclusion until we get back on the track once the build is complete.

 

whats so bad about that? you sound as though you want the answers before we get a chance to test with the new suspension?

 

if you think we are wasting our time then thats fine. we will stop posting the project details and appolgise to those who think we are chatting shit or dont find this post interesting.

[SupraStar 3000]

guys, please keep this friendly.

 

I for one am interested in Bijal's project and don't want to jeopardise a potentially interesting thread.

 

Keep us updated Bijal

[Guest Bijal]

To be honest unless there was any hard evidence that HKS turbos are any different or better than Garrett turbos whats the point in spending the extra money on them. So far it is just talk and no proof. Im sorry but it would be Garrett for me every time.

 

agreed there, no decent test for any one of us to back up any one of our claims.

 

it would be garrett for me too if i wanted over 1200rwhp Or if i couldnt afford the hks turbo.

[LeeT]

agreed there, no decent test for any one of us to back up any one of our claims.

 

it would be garrett for me too if i wanted over 1200rwhp Or if i couldnt afford the hks turbo.

i dont want over 1200rwhp and i CAN afford a HKS turbo. what im saying is so far the to4z seems very similar in spec to the T67DBB which is half the price and cannot justify paying double for the unproven HKS unit. By the way, im not arguing with you as im very interested in your project, im just voicing my personal opinion:)

[Guest Bijal]

i dont want over 1200rwhp and i CAN afford a HKS turbo. what im saying is so far the to4z seems very similar in spec to the T67DBB which is half the price and cannot justify paying double for the unproven HKS unit. By the way, im not arguing with you as im very interested in your project, im just voicing my personal opinion:)

 

i know you are, thats fine, at least you respect my opinion, just the way i do of yours.

[Syed Shah]

Some of us are very interested - please keep going.

 

Any of these NON RELATED arguments: Please take elsewhere! Some people love hating and pi**ing on others bonfires (often without even having a camp fire themselves).

 

Bijal - what wheels will you now be using? There are some very very light ones available, but none in mega-widths.

[mkirby]

Very good thread and i hope it continues to its natural end and not going on this route

 

Also just to add i think there was a comment about the HKS turbos not being proven??????? i would say there about the most proven turbo in the tuning market???

 

Mike

[Lucifer]

Very good thread and i hope it continues to its natural end and not going on this route

 

Also just to add i think there was a comment about the HKS turbos not being proven??????? i would say there about the most proven turbo in the tuning market???

 

Mike

 

Based on?

[mkirby]

Based on?

 

??? based on???

 

based on hmmm quite alot of cars running them?? and they being pretty reliable and well proven? my theory is based on years in the tuning scene having a supra, skylines, 300zx's etc and have had them myself but like many others here i spend half my life reading about tuned cars and a good persentage run HKS turbos and most of the feedback is always top notch.

 

I cant believe TBH that were having this conversation questioning a quality manufacturer like HKS?? dont get me wrong theres plenty of other good manufacturers but i would rate HKS as one of the top ones without a doubt!!

 

Mike

[lockys96]

based on sales figures,

 

if the hks mushroom filter or super dragger is anything to go by then...........................

[Lucifer]

Mine and Terry's point was are they worth the 200% price tag when they are essentially Garret units.

 

And yes, HKS isnt always the best. They dont keep up with Technology for old product lines for one.

[LeeT]

??? based on???

 

based on hmmm quite alot of cars running them?? and they being pretty reliable and well proven? my theory is based on years in the tuning scene having a supra, skylines, 300zx's etc and have had them myself but like many others here i spend half my life reading about tuned cars and a good persentage run HKS turbos and most of the feedback is always top notch.

 

I cant believe TBH that were having this conversation questioning a quality manufacturer like HKS?? dont get me wrong theres plenty of other good manufacturers but i would rate HKS as one of the top ones without a doubt!!

 

Mike

the thing that we were disputing really was that they are no better or have not been proven to be better than the Garrett range of turbos. The T04z seems to have an identical spec to the T67dbb and if this is the case, why pay double the price for the HKS??

[mkirby]

Mine and Terry's point was are they worth the 200% price tag when they are essentially Garret units.

 

And yes, HKS isnt always the best. They dont keep up with Technology for old product lines for one.

 

I didnt say they were

 

i dont have everything HKS on my car but what i do have is very good

 

i'm assuming you dont deal with HKS then

[Lucifer]

As far as I can see for the same reason we buy Nike trainers for the Gym.... to pull nice ladies