Fitted Super Dragger. What the F......

[Brian Jackett]

What is all that about, fitted Super Drager last night and went for a test run.

 

What! Found a straight bit of road and floored it. God it moves but at 4,000 rpm and the second turbo kicks in, it does at 1.4 bar, most of the times it span the back wheels in the dry. ANd it is an Auto.

 

It is amazing, but already I feel the stock Jap import brakes are now not good enough to stop the car and it is so hard to control the car. I am sure I will get use to it, but surely you do not need to do anymore engine mods to a car with the cats and a super dragger fitted. It seems a monster now.

 

Got to modify the suspension and brakes I think then I will have a very interesting track car.

 

P.S. is 1.4 bar to high. I think I need to fit a boost controller. PB FCD controller works fine no fuel cut at 1.4 bar. Excellent

 

 

 

 

regards

Brian

[Ring Master]

 

Brian,

 

As it is, your car is going to go *BANG*  within a few thousand

miles.

 

Firstly, you *MUST* check your A/F ratio.

 

Whilst the TRL FCD is a great bit of kit,

 

!!YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ADDITIONAL FUEL ABOVE 1 BAR!!

 

 

ok, a stock jap tt runs rich at wot with an a/f of just over 10

(perfect mixture is 12.1 methinks) but it wont take much to get this to 15 and beyond....good bye JZA80...........

 

Please find someone with a wide band lamda and get your a/f ratio checked BEFORE you drive hard !!!! It will cost peanuts to get it checked.

 

 

ps despite what anyone tells you, I do not see how you can

reduce this severe boost creep with a boost controller,

your only option is to put a cat back in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian Jackett]

Ok, just kept up with a big sports bike. It is amazing, shame I might have to put a cat back in.

 

Who can check the air fuel ratio

 

 

regards

[Ring Master]

 

Ash can

[Adam W]

Rather than putting a cat back in, doesn't Chris Wilsons decat pipe do the job of keeping boost down to manageable levels?

 

Alternatively, you could get some extra fuelling in there, big FMIC to keep the temperatures down, etc, etc, etc until you completely run out of money and your car STILL isn't quite fast enough!

[GavinL]

Quote: from Brian Jackett on 8:52 am on Nov. 2, 2001[br]Ok, just kept up with a big sports bike. It is amazing, shame I might have to put a cat back in.

 

Who can check the air fuel ratio

 

 

regards

 

I would be inclined to speak to Chris Wilson, his pipes are supposed to counter the boost creep.

 

 

regards..................

[Brian Jackett]

I have just spoke to him and he said that 1.4 PSI is ok, as I have water injection to keep temp down.

 

I am guessing it is the increase in temp that causes a problem

 

 

 

regards

[Branners]

I would have to disagree about the engine going bang in a couple of thousand miles. Obviously running 1.4bar is above the limit but I have been running decated with a blitz for over a year now and I have seen my boost go as high as 1.45 recently. My engine is still running fine and has not gone in to melt down yet. I had the FMIC fitted to reduce the charge temperatures so if you plan on running that level of boost for a while I would suggest getting a FMIC.

 

I have also seen a number of cars having their boost controlled with a Blitz DSBC which Justin sells through Shop!!. Leon has fitted them and knows how to control the boost creep down, in theory he shouldnt be able to do it, but in practice he has.

 

So I would suggest buying a FMIC and Blitz DSBC and then letting somebody like Leon fit it and setup the boost controller to deal with the overboost problem.

 

If you havent already got it, I would also recommend Racelogic TC. With that amount of power its pretty much essential, especially in the wet.

 

JB

[Alex]

What's Leon's e-mail address?

 

I've got my SBC-iD and I'm now getting De-cats so I'll need to know which settings to use to reduce boost...

 

Could it just be that if you set the gain to 1 it takes too long to build pressure so you never really hit full boost as normally your only WOT for a few secs at a time in normal driving.

 

After Christmas and possibly a visit to Leon I might set the boost to 1.4bar (ie I'll get and FMIC and ask leon if I really do have Hybrids)

 

[Branners]

Leon is on 07956 285219 or [email protected] but he doesnt have time to check his emails much at the mo.

 

JB

[Adam W]

So what causes the problems when running at 1.4bar - detonation, high combustion temps caused by running lean, or high temps caused by the stock turbos thrashing at the air as they compress it?

 

Can you run higher boost safely with hybrids, or do you get more power at the same boost pressure because the air is cooler?

[Doughie]

Brian

What downpipes have you got in the car ?

Chris Wilson's are 2.5" diameter which is designed to prevent Jap-spec cars overboosting (and 1.4 bar really is overboosting to be honest).

UK-specs have some sort of bypass system which means that they don't overboost like the Jap-specs do.

 

If you have a 3" downpipe (think the ones Leon does are 3" but might be wrong).   then this may allow the boost to get to the 1.4bar sort of levels.

You'll get used to the power reasonably quickly.   It's the shock of the change that makes it seem uncontrollable.   you don't HAVE to use full throttle all the time.....

and yes, in the wet (especially in an automatic) be VERY careful, otherwise you'll end up in a hedge somewhere (or worse)

[GavinL]

Quote: from branners on 10:52 am on Nov. 2, 2001[br]Leon is on 07956 285219 or [email protected] but he doesnt have time to check his emails much at the mo.

 

JB

 

I don't think he does at all.

[Brian Jackett]

I have got C Wilson down pipes, he has suggested returning the middle pipe and he will weld in a restrictor.

 

I managed 1.5 today, earlier the second turbo stopped working, but luckily a vacum pipe had just come off.

 

I don't know why my Jap TT is boosting so high, it was as far as I am aware standard from the JIC.

 

I really do have a different car now, I never realised that it would make that much difference.

 

John, I have water injection running so that should keep temps down.

 

P.S. I was going to do another track day but I will leave it to next year now, after I have put on bigger brakes and CW suspension. Brakes now feel like I have got push bike rubbers.

 

I could never control that on the track with the existing brakes and suspension.

 

 

regards All

 

regards

Brian

[Doughie]

I believe Phil Duley's jap-spec car got major moajor boost like yours too when he replaced both cats with CW pipe.   luck of the draw !

 

He solved it be putting one cat back on to keep the boost level down to more sane levels.

1.5 bar is almost 22psi which is WAY to high.

 

I hope you're using Super Unleaded AND a bottle of Millers octane booster to try to protect the engine.

some sort of restriction in the exhaust should bring it down though like you said.

[Brian Jackett]

I am using Super but I do have water injection which will keep temp down.

 

I really don't want to put a CAT back, I think the only option would be to put in a restrictor. Chris seemed to think 1.4 is ok, and also Mr Branners sees no probs.

 

I am getting a slight miss fire sometimes on full boost, but not always.

 

I don't want to blow the engine but I do like the power increase. I keep going out to it and taking it round the block, 10 miles up to Brands Hatch and back. Its such a giggle, I only really ever experienced this with bikes and trikes.

 

I love it

regards

[Ring Master]

 

 

from 14psi onwards your ECU supplies no extra

fuel, this is due to the fuel cut defencer clamping

the output signal from the turbo pressure sensor.

 

At about 1.1-1.2 the rich mixture that was

previosuly used to keep combustion temps down

is no longer rich, ok, FMIC or H20 do a great job

to compensate. Once over 1.2 your asking

for trouble, i'd say the mixture will begin to get lean,

probably not lean enough to kill your engine quickly,

but thats probably due to the turbos making precious little power

above 1.2 anyway!

 

Dyno a stock mk4 at 1.2 then at 1.4 and id bet good money

theres naff all in it, well, except at 1.2 your being much kinder to

your engine.

 

If Chris W reckons 1.4 is ok, I do hope he has done some

serious testing for a/f ratio, det, pinking at that boost.

 

JB and BJ (!!!)  IMHO you will wreck your engine at some stage like I did,your car will off the road for months and youll be mighty naffed off.

 

I hope im wrong  

 

Im going to order some valves and pistons, just in case

 

 

 

[mark brown]

I agree with Justin, I have FMIC, water injection etc and an AFR meter connected to a separate wide band lambda sensor and at 1.3 bar the mixture starts becoming lean using the standard ECU.

 

I run way above these figures on Hybrids but I am using an additional injector kit and 550cc injectors and a Blitz ECU (different fuel map).

 

If you are not putting additional fuel in above 1.3 bar you are likely to have problems be careful the results can be expensive.

 

Mark

[Branners]

Brian - Water injection works exceptionally well, when it works. The ERL kits have had a very high failure rate on the pumps, and if the WI isnt running then the charge temps will be unacceptably high, especially on a track.

 

I know theres a few of us who will watch the boost gauge on a track and if it goes above 1.3 we ease off to keep it at about 1.1. On the road I also watch the gauge like a hawk which is probably why my engine is still in one piece, and I dont run exceptionally high boost for extended periods, I shudder to think what Justins engine was doing during the breakfast runs...

 

In answer to the question about hybrids, for the same level of boost there will be more power and as the turbos are operating within their efficiency the temperature dont spiral out of control...but then the fueling gets a little iffy so you have to fit an uprated fuel pump and fuel regulator as the cheap option...new injectors and fuel controller as the expensive option.

 

JB

[Guest Ash]

 

 

I read these kinds of threads with interest.

 

I rather enjoy hearing people's opinions on how "they have run xxx-bar for xxx-time and their engine seems okay".

 

But what you people do not realise is that you only THINK you push your engines hard.

 

The only person on this list who REALLY DID push his car 10-tenths is Justin.  

 

He blew his stock engine after only a few thousand miles.

 

I have since invested some £8,000 in test equipment in order to glean the TRUTH as to what *EXACTLY* is happening in a (so called) tuned MKIV engine.

 

... leading tuner says, fit fuel-cut defencer... fuel cut defencer makes engine run mad lean... EGT's go through the roof and blow turbos... leading tuner has turbos on the shelf.... mega bucks are transferred... repeat until close.

 

Yours,

J

 

 

[Adam W]

Thrashing a stock engine at ten tenths would result in accelerated wear.  Modifying an engine and driving it "normally" will result in accelerated wear.  If you do both you will have problems very quickly!

 

Isn't this all common sense???

[Guest Ash]

 

Quote: from Brian Jackett on 1:27 pm on Nov. 2, 2001[br]I am using Super but I do have water injection which will keep temp down.

 

I am getting a slight miss fire sometimes on full boost, but not always.

 

regards

 

 

The full-boost misfire is detonation.

 

Yours,

J

[Ring Master]

 

Ash,

 

Is detonation bad ?   ROFL !!!

 

 

 

Let me tell you a test id be keen to see.

 

 

Perhaps Branners or Brian might take part, results would be interesting!

 

Reset the ECU, go for a mild blast and take an ignition timing reading at the end.

 

Then go for a mental blast running 1.4 , and test timing again.

 

I'd be very keen to see just how far the ECU has retarded timing.

 

Perhaps we could hook up the wide band lamda at the same time ?

 

 

Ash, Branners , fancy a get together some time to do some real testing ?  Beers on me....

 

 

[Brian Jackett]

Chris has advised making a metal gasket to sit between his de cat pipes with a smaller hole to reduce boost.

 

I am going to get a few made so I can experiment and get the boost down to 1.3

 

Thanks for all the help with this prob. Still don't know why it is boosting so high but the super drager pipe is absolutley really big bore. I don't know if this is normal

 

regards

[THOR Racing]

Can I just say that the operation of the TRL VFCC is not in question.

It is it's use that is.

 

The VFCC (in fact any fuel cut device) should always be fitted with the understanding that the car fueling will not be modified as the ECU is seeing NO change the rising boost pressure. That's it's purpose, to clamp the MAP sensor output level to just below fuel cut.

 

Now on my MkIV at 18psi the fuelling is fine (as measured by my AFRi)

Above that and you really should get the AFR checked out or fit an AFR device.

This is precisely the reason why I designed in an OVERBOOST threshold setting. This is to allow you to set a max boost of 18.5/19psi (any more and the stock sensor cannot measure it) With this in place the you should never go lean as you should never exceed 18/19psi. You can of course remove this setting altogether at your own risk.

 

Whenever you modify a car you should always check every aspect and be aware of the dangers (hence the reason you're on this list)

 

The TRL VFCC (or any others) only serve to remove one hurdle, often replacing it by another hurdle further down the line. You never get something for nothing!

 

I do agree that people should be fitting an AFR device to their cars if they intend to go beyond what the stock MAP sensor can read and consider other mods like FMIC or water injection as well as larger injectors etc etc.

 

I'm not plugging my new product but I designed it (again for myself) for the purpose of measuring Injector Duty Cycle and O2 voltage.

 

You can instantly see the AFR and Inj Duty to spot any problems.

I do need a wideband O2 sensor so if anyone knows where I can get one quick I'll try that as well. The LED's just show a voltage between 0->1V so should cope with a wideband O2 sensor as well.

 

If any of you have any issues with AFR meters, likes dis-likes etc etc then air them here and I can make some changes. Your opportunity to help design a product you like.

 

I'll open this as another thread so I don't upset anybody about talking here on this thread.

 

Pete