dude Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 So chris can an SAF-C and Apexi ITC unit be used to take advantage of these camshafts , Marks seem to work quite well as far as i can see as his mid 12 second 1/4 shows , ive never heard anyone say i didnt notice an improvement when fitting uprated cams , a lot of yanks are running 272 on stock ECU's and running low 11 and hi 10 second 1/4's , how much more of an improvement can you get ??? Dude:flame Dev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 I guarantee that a properly remapped ecu would make any improvement from cam changes a hell of a lot better. Even mild changes to cam timing require mapping changes, they are the heart of how an engine performs, and as such need a tailored map generating. I don't doubt some improvement will be felt at certain rev points just by changing to a slightly more radical cam profile, and / or adding some extra lift, but you really do need to re map to gain proper benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Originally posted by Chris Wilson I guarantee that a properly remapped ecu would make any improvement from cam changes a hell of a lot better. Even mild changes to cam timing require mapping changes, they are the heart of how an engine performs, and as such need a tailored map generating. I don't doubt some improvement will be felt at certain rev points just by changing to a slightly more radical cam profile, and / or adding some extra lift, but you really do need to re map to gain proper benefit. And is that Poss. with the 2 units i mentioned ??? Dude :flame Dev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 I'm also interested in how effective cams are as a mod. This graph from HKS compares various spec cams with OE. I presume that will be the US/UK spec which I think has slightly greater duration. I presume the car wasn't using stock twin turbos, either! On the face of it, with the 264 camsthere only seems to be about a 1o ps gain from 4000-5000, but then rising from 15-30 ps in the 5000-6000 range and large amounts thereafter. The torque graph here shows a gain in torqure (264s again) of about 3-6 kgm from 4000-6000rpm - a more impressive 5-10%. I can't see much difference, positive or negative, lower down the scale. Presumably, more of a difference would be felt moving from jap spec cams though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Originally posted by dude And is that Poss. with the 2 units i mentioned ??? Dude :flame Dev Add the greddy e-manage to that question It can control advance/retard at different rpms, pulse duration etc as I understand it.....but it's still a piggyback ECU. Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Whilst a stand alone will always make the most of any mods, the cams work fine with a stock ECU. They will make the idle slightly lumpy, and basically move the power up the rpm range. When talking big power the stock cams will become a restriction but I assume that point is past 600 bhp so won't concern most. I had a 256/264 combo for over 30k with stock ecu with hybrids, and it was just fine. 264 is as far as you really want to go as above that the engine becomes an " interference engine" which to me is an unacceptable risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GavinL Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Originally posted by Tannhauser I presume the car wasn't using stock twin turbos, either! Correct, I looked into this a long time ago and it is a T04R series turbo. HKS said this: The reason behind why R&D at Headquarters used an upgraded turbo was because the stock turbines did not increase horsepower enough at certain ranges to be able to compare cams. The differences between cams were so close that it was hard to compare. Therefore the T04r was utilized so that the cams can show their true potential characteristics in comparison to each other. Thereafter HKS steadfastly refused to cough up any info on their cams with stock turbo's, make of that what you will folks......... FWIW I recent changed my 264 inlet for a 256 inlet with 264 exhaust, (the article on http://www.T04R.com says it all I think) and the car is much happier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ad500 Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Originally posted by Terry S . I had a 256/264 combo for over 30k with stock ecu with hybrids, and it was just fine. Yep, same here, just coming up to 30K with same cams/stock ecu, but probably smaller hybrids, no problems at all:thumbs: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 You probably won't see a problem with these tame cams, it's just that you won't see the gains you should or could. If anyone were to get some serious cams ground to run with a big turbo(s), then there would be a serious problem. The mapping would need radical overhauling in all respects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 why would anyone want to go higher than say a 272 when you see the sort of power that a big single equiped car with these cams can put out ???? Its easy to say 'oh you need this ECU and we'll chuck on this Turbo etc ' but these guys havent got an open cheque book and want to know how mods work in the 'real world' not a Raceteam enviroment where $$$$$ are no object !!Sure if you fit say 264's without a prog. ECU you may see say 20hp improvement (fig. for example only) and if you fit the ECU you may get another say 8 but is that 8 worth spending another say £2000 to acheive (AEM and mapping) in my eyes no , so your not taking full advantage of your mods but they still are making a diff. Proof of the pudding is in the eating look at Monkeymark , no LSD,no drag radials ,cams and no ecu to allter mapping and it runs mid 12's for not a lot of money only 1/2 a second behind Paul Whiffin and that car has had s**tloads of $$$$$ thrown at it , so has got the best value for money ?????? Years ago myself and a mate built a pro street zodiac it was an abandonned project , by the time we finished it it owed under £5000 and ran 11.2 out the box , allmost every part was 2nd hand even the cam (never did find out what duration it was ) yrt that car only ever broke its prop once , we had guys that had spent over 20K scratching their heads when they asked 'what cam you running ' and we'd say dunno got it at a swap meet for £50 but it seems to work ' and off they would trundle to their 12 or 13 second car shaking their heads . Sometimes you just gotta tear up the rule book and experiment , do something different BTW the zodiac ended up running high 10,s , i tuned the engine a lot more and it is still running low 10's in a heavier Camaro and all that without a programable EMU !!!!!!!!!!! Dude :flame Dev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 It's relatively easier to make an engine live on a drag strip for less than 20 seconds than make one live on a track day for 20 plus minutes, so a malconfigured engine may seem OK in one environment, yet die spectacularly in another. My work is 99.9% race track based, so I look at engines from the point of view of making them survive in that environment. If you read forums where members go to the drag strip with modded cars you will see an interesting facet show up. Quite a few of these engines survive 4 or so runs up the strip, but the testosterone induced race back up the motorway home kills them. Heat and stress issues show up on the motorway that the drag race runs fail to induce. The Yanks are very good at extracting short bursts of optimistic power from engines, they turn to the UK for technology to make them live long term Don't get me wrong, I realise most people here are spending their own, rather than sponsors money, but where there's a right and wrong way to do something I will try and point it out. It's easy to buy bits and pieces but overlook the whole package though, and I have always maintained that the first purchase consideration should be how is the thing going to be mapped? It's a bit like giving someone a carburetted engine with old fashiond ignition distributor and say to them to fit a cam and exhaust and stuff, but you can't turn the disi or change the jets. OK, the black box gizmos allow some coarse fiddling with signals, but it's hit and miss, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 I'm hoping the E-Manage is a good halfway-house between black box and mappable ECU. For a start, the box is blue It sorts ignition timing and injector duy cycle, and it can map above the stock MAP sensor's limit. Seems to cover everything to me Good fuelling, intercooling, and heat shielding seems to be the other three criteria to research before thinking about the turbo or whatever. Kit fever is a terrible thing -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONKEYmark Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 have not got a boost controller of any fueling mods, still on stock 440cc injectors standard pump, no lsd,no drag radials. would love to get a low 12 high 11 on drag radials before going single. it seems a shame some big power cars here not doing low 11s or in 10`s in america they hitting high 10`s low to mid 11`s with stock turbos and drag radials. we dont have many big power cars over here but a few starting to go for the power. all i want is to see supras put up a bit of a fight against the skyline boys. they seem a bit cocky, only time will tell. dont think you have to do everything by the book. sometimes home made projects do a good job. know a bloke who has built a capri with 4wd cossie power and at the time was beating martin hadland with his big budget escort cossie. he was doing mid 11`s and it was a fast car with about 450bhp. he has done lots of work on jap cars too. has rebuilt lots of evo`s lets hope its a good year for us have fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Whilst good 1/4 mile times are a good indicator, a quick 1/4 mile car doesn't necessarily make a quick road car. Things like suspension set up will be completely different. IMHO I would take a quick road car over a quick 1/4 mile car anytime, as long as it trapped at 140mph;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylinelee Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 dude monkeys car only ran 12's cos i stuck my gtr badge on it:D its ok all the big hitters with endless pockets saying you gotta have this or that, but not everyone can. and to be perfectley honest monkeys stock turbo's 1/2 a sec slower than mr whiffins beast over a quarter makes you think do you need it really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul R Posted January 4, 2004 Author Share Posted January 4, 2004 Back to the thread for a sec anyway.... I think the new car will be plenty powerfull enough for me for now - I think it's going to be quite a bit quicker than my standard j-spec TT Auto!! I will prob just invest in a CW second de-cat pipe for now! Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Originally posted by Paul R Back to the thread for a sec anyway.... I think the new car will be plenty powerfull enough for me for now - I think it's going to be quite a bit quicker than my standard j-spec TT Auto!! I will prob just invest in a CW second de-cat pipe for now! Paul. and a restrictor ring !!!!!. Dude:flame Dev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Originally posted by Ian C I'm hoping the E-Manage is a good halfway-house between black box and mappable ECU. For a start, the box is blue It sorts ignition timing and injector duy cycle, and it can map above the stock MAP sensor's limit. Seems to cover everything to me Good fuelling, intercooling, and heat shielding seems to be the other three criteria to research before thinking about the turbo or whatever. Kit fever is a terrible thing -Ian I am genuinely very interested in how you get on with this. I have sat back and re read this thread, and have decided I have perhaps come across not at all as I intended. I am only too aware how a budget dictates goals and mods, hell, my own race car could benefit from all sorts of things it ain't gonna get I can sometimes get carried away because I spend a lot of my time spending others dosh! That often comes via a third party, so it is easy to become "unreal" sometimes. Fun too, at times, although it doesn't happen as often as I might wish! High end engines cost silly money these days. They always have, but with all the electronics the goalposts have moved a long way in recent times. It's easy for internet mail to fail to carry ones intentions when pounding the keyboard. I hope people didn't think I was being in ANY way critical of peoples mods, I merely meant to put over the wider picture of why an aftermarket mappable ecu might help bring forth the full benefit of other mods. Sadly, the more complex the base engine upon which mods are undertaken, the more complex the WHOLE picture becomes, and make no mistakes, the MKIV TT is a VERY complex engine in many ways. In fact it was probably quite unthinkable technology even 15 years ago, for a road car engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Personally I've had a gutful of piggyback gizmos, they've been nothing but a complete PITA. If I decide to go big single/twin then it's going to be with a MOTEC, mapped once, mapped properly and then left alone out of sight and out of mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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