FMIC? Are you sure???

[chilli]

well chris I'm still interested in going the uprated SMIC route for my current bpu setup at the moment and then in the future I may possibly go for a small(ish) single turbo set up.

 

Have you used your uprated SMIC for a single turbo application?

 

If so how did you find it? what max turbo size / boost / bhp would you say this setup can cope with?

[Chris Wilson]

On here Wez has a single with my SMIC. There are 3 others around, but their owners are not on here. As has been said by someone else, a correctly sizd turbo running in its efficiency island has less intercooling requirements than stock ones being overdriven. It should support 550 maybe 600 BHP with the right turbo(s) and cams et cetera. The main problem with all the kits I see (not just on Supras) with tubular manifolds is cracking. I run cast iron on my car, and even that has a crack starting, but its old and does heavy track work. I am having an Inconel one built as I type, but they are expensive.

 

I/C's are trivial compared to ecu's, mapping and manifolds

[Clarkey]

 

I/C's are trivial compared to ecu's, mapping and manifolds

 

The £££ isn't tho.

 

Good thread !

[Guest Usmann A]

Ok, let me poise this question to you Chris.....

 

if you mapped a car on a 61mm at 1.4 bar, and you put 71mm at 1.4 bar on,keeping the same map, would the car run lean or not?

[Wez]

if you mapped a car on a 61mm at 1.4 bar, and you put 71mm at 1.4 bar on,keeping the same map, would the car run lean or not?

 

 

What are you trying to get at here, what does this have to do with the intercooler?

[Guest Usmann A]

think about it, not only will it run lean due to the denser cooler air, but also you are moving more volume aswell ..., if it was all todo with Denser charge then we could operate a T61 at 35psi,and use CO2 to cool it down,or why dont we al use stock turbos at 1.6bar and some serious intercooling ot bring temps down .....???

 

ahh..... BUT do that to a 71 and yet again more power ... why?? because it moves more volume of air .................

 

Which come to my point of that, a SMIC can is only deisgned to flow a certain CFM of air, go above that and youll get surge.

 

Now i dont agree with using big turbos at low boost and SMIC, because you are A, not in turbos efficiency range, more lag, B, silly!! LOL

 

 

edit, ITS ABOUT FLOW RATES WHERE TALKING ABOUT HERE!!!!!

[jason m]

Chris the 550 - 600 bhp would be engine hp I assume, so a 67 may be too big would you say? I would only run upto 1.4bar max as would still probably be on stock engine - unless it goes bang of course

[TLicense]

because it moves more volume of air .................

 

Which come to my point of that, a SMIC can is only deisgned to flow a certain CFM of air, go above that and youll get surge.

 

edit, ITS ABOUT FLOW RATES WHERE TALKING ABOUT HERE!!!!!

 

But from what Chris is saying the surging tends to occure at low engine speeds/part throttle, where the actual volume flow rate through the IC is small anyway.

 

This is all interesting stuff guys, I know very little about surge etc, so I'm definitely learning if no-one else is!

 

Cheers,

[RedM]

Tony,

 

Could you not ask an F1 person to explain it all to us. Someone with nothing to sell but who knows what they are on about.

[Guest Usmann A]

Tony,

 

Ok, no ones take this the wrong way, I/Mig have ACTUALLY experienced this happen on a 2JZ.

 

Simple stuff, if the intercooler volume flow rate is small enough to cause surge at low down(when the travelling air is at a higher velocity), it will be a restrication at top end for sure.

 

Tony, you got AEM right, why dont you put your kit on a SMIC, log AIT, and then put a FMIC and log temps, the comp chargts on yours turbos mean that at there efficiency(high boost) the smic wouldnt cool down F' all. let alone be a flow restriction.

[imi]

Good thread guys...looks like it might be time to get a new SMIC

 

Regards

[michel lane]

i totally agree with usmann here , i have seem the AIT on the aem using a smic and a fmic and there is a big difference ... matching up the turbo with the smic as chris has pointed out is a good idea , but in the real world of todays speed freaks . you want the biggest bang for your money and forget about effiency , lets just see how much hp i can get out of it !!!anyone out there with a single bought a turbo dependent on the size of there IC ?? i didnt , i bought the turbo first and bought a new FMIC .

[Miguel]

[TLicense]

Tony,

 

Ok, no ones take this the wrong way, I/Mig have ACTUALLY experienced this happen on a 2JZ.

 

Simple stuff, if the intercooler volume flow rate is small enough to cause surge at low down(when the travelling air is at a higher velocity), it will be a restrication at top end for sure.

 

Tony, you got AEM right, why dont you put your kit on a SMIC, log AIT, and then put a FMIC and log temps, the comp chargts on yours turbos mean that at there efficiency(high boost) the smic wouldnt cool down F' all. let alone be a flow restriction.

 

Well I've measured AIT with my stock tubbies and stock IC. Once the car is moving, at WOT it levels out around 40degsC give or take, obviously I've not got a FMIC to measure on

 

totally agree with usmann here , i have seem the AIT on the aem using a smic and a fmic and there is a big difference ... matching up the turbo with the smic as chris has pointed out is a good idea , but in the real world of todays speed freaks . you want the biggest bang for your money and forget about effiency , lets just see how much hp i can get out of it !!!anyone out there with a single bought a turbo dependent on the size of there IC ?? i didnt , i bought the turbo first and bought a new FMIC .

 

The question is really, what kind of increase in temps did you get after you fitted the single but with the SMIC, and did you experience any surge? Or did you just want to decrease temps further so you could eek out a few more ponies?

 

Tony,

 

Could you not ask an F1 person to explain it all to us. Someone with nothing to sell but who knows what they are on about.

 

Good idea, except last time anyone I worked with saw a turbo in action was when I was still in school. Unfortunately turbo's, like many other area's of automotive engineering, are so specialist that unless your actually taking an interest in a particular area, you're not likely to actualy know too much about it.

[Simon]

Glad I'm happy with a measly 280bhp on my j-spec

[Terminator]

Interesting. IC's are heat exchangers. Greater the surface area of exposed fins the greater the capacity for cooling. It is air incontact with the cooled metal that drops the charge temperature. Every IC with have its limit of efficiency. Given the same design, materials and construction, larger is better.

 

I have a Greddy smic and it is much more efficient than the stock one. I am sure I read on some Greddy site that they were good for 600-700bhp. Dont think I would want to try it on anything bigger than a T61.

[jason m]

Wez have you had any surging probs, or high intake temps with your setup?

[Wez]

Wez have you had any surging probs, or high intake temps with your setup?

 

Nope

 

I agree that surging should be a result of incorrectly matched turbo, ie its spinning up too fast and the engine cannot take it, just trying to get my head around how an IC could affect this.

 

The problem I have with this is that if it was the IC causing the surge then I would expect it to become more and more of an issue as revs and airflow increase but by the sounds of it this is not the case.

 

If the IC can handle the airflow at 6000rpm and 1bar, why would it not be able to handle the much less lower flow of air at say .5bar 3000rpm while its spinning up.

 

A very large IC could help with a mismatched turbo and surge maybe as it would need to fill all the pipework and the IC before being able to fill the cylinders, but this still means the turbo is incorrectly matched really.

[Guest Usmann A]

 

Ok, im stepping out of this thread now, cas no one has actually read mine and migs posts properly. Your all hung up on charge temps, and now blaming incorrect turbo sizing!!!

 

Wez, stock based intercooler was designed for stockis flow rates, and pipe sizes and TB ...and inlet manifold.

 

Now why would you go and uprate its flow capacity a little bit more when youve uprate the turbo capacity alot more?

 

Why is it when you goto places like porsche Audi, etc they always change the coolers first.

 

Why are you guys making something so simple as putting a bigger intercooler on such a drama, i mean its no skin of my nose, but youd wonder whyevery damn modified road car out there has a FMIC.

 

thank you very much. Goodnite.

[UltraFlynn]

Just as an aside I guess we're lucky that we're choosing between side mount and front mount. Both are directly in the airflow.

 

GT4s and Scoobies are top mounted and then it's a must to move it off of the hot engine and into some decent airflow.

[Wez]

ROFL chill guys, no drama here, just a difference of opinion

 

My SMIC is working fine for me at the moment, if it becomes an issue then I will look at another solution.

[chilli]

If 550-600bhp is possible with a decent uprated SMIC as CW says, it is well worth considering then, since this power level is more than enough for the majority of people with road going cars and small/mid single turbo setups. Good thread imho because it does challenge the default 'I must get an FMIC as soon as I start to tune' mentality.

 

Is the real question, for a given air flow, how much pressure drop will I get accross the intercooler, if it is too much, will this cause the turbo side pressure to go too high to then be out of the turbos efficiency band, for any given manifold pressure that you are aiming for... ? This is the blowing through a straw analogy, will the turbo be overworked and thus produce more hot air, requiring a bigger FMIC. Seems to be a cyclic argument here lol

[Miguel]

I think the question , Well the one I have been asking more than once on this thread, Is what is the Max flow rate an SMIC, uprated or stock, can take before it becomes a restriction? Or more simply put ...what size turbo and boost would swamp the SMIC.

 

No one has directly said the SMIC is crap or should not be used as far as i can see. I think the point that is trying to be raised but keeps going round in circles is that any given single set up or twins running at 1.2 bar will not flow the same as the stockers at 1.2 bar. and so on. Larger body turbos flow more air at given set boost as you go up the range and at what point will and SMIC be unable to handle the flow?

 

FMIC have been the norm for one reason, They are a known future proof part that will take almost any size turbo you can throw at them and boost. Im in total agreement that an SMIC has its place with the smaller turbos and lower boosts but what i want clearing up is when is the cross over point as there seems to be a running fad for BIG power and big turbos. Agreed that 500 BHP makes an awesome road car but that doesnt seem to sit with quite a few people who like to have way more than that and choose the biggest turbo they think they can get away with at wich point IMHO the SMIC is now becoming the weakest link. Also my honest opinion is that a 61 at high boost levels is about the max on the side mount ..uprated or ortherwise, I could of course be proved wrong and someone may be running a 67 at 1.8 bar on a side mount, if so let us all see. Or maybe some flow test on these SMIC's would be nice

 

[chilli]

Flow test on SMIC (stock and uprated) against some FMICs would be excellent, be great to see the restriction / pressure drop they create in black and white.

 

for me, not chasing endless power the uprated SMIC sounds like a good compromise between replacing the worn out stock unit and something that can support a small sensible sized single, should the time come.

 

For sure if you are persuing big bhp then it will rapidly become the weakest link, if you are persuing this sort of goal then a nice FMIC is also a drop in the ocean for the budget too, so it probably makes sense to just do it.

[Miguel]

Going to be interesting to see Tony's Blitz twins on a CW SMIC and I'm sure he will put his findings up for us all to see. At least some Info will then be available on what boost he is able to run on it safely as I suspect that we are never going to get any values from the CW or the stock any other way than just try them.