Advice on rebuilding the VVTi 2JZ-GTE engine

[CJ]

...I remember back then I saw a chubby custard

That was me...not the car

[osso]

That was me...not the car

 

[Guest pwpanas]

There is me thinking that the std engine could take this power no probs......lol

Agreed.

[JamieP]

Agreed.

 

You dug up a 5 year old thread to say that?

 

Good old lucifer, i miss his bullsh1t:D

[Geo]

You dug up a 5 year old thread to say that?

 

Good old lucifer, i miss his bullsh1t:D

 

You beat me to it,

[Guest pwpanas]

You dug up a 5 year old thread to say that?...

Still trying to quench these nasty rumors that the 2jz-gte needs to be rebuilt to handle power. I was referred to this old thread by someone on another forum asking a similar question. When I asked him why he thought he needed to rebuild the engine, he referred me to this thread. *shrug*

[Nic]

Still trying to quench these nasty rumors that the 2jz-gte needs to be rebuilt to handle power. I was referred to this old thread by someone on another forum asking a similar question. When I asked him why he thought he needed to rebuild the engine, he referred me to this thread. *shrug*

 

It depends how many miles are on the engine, how well it has been maintained over that mileage and how much power you intend to run it at. If you're planning on spending big money to build a big single/twin turbo powered Supra the cost of rebuilding the engine should be just part of the build budget IMO.

[imi]

Still trying to quench these nasty rumors that the 2jz-gte needs to be rebuilt to handle power. I was referred to this old thread by someone on another forum asking a similar question. When I asked him why he thought he needed to rebuild the engine, he referred me to this thread. *shrug*

 

The devil lives on......

[Guest pwpanas]

It depends how many miles are on the engine, how well it has been maintained over that mileage and how much power you intend to run it at.

Agreed...but the problem is that many read your "just part of the budget" statement, and jump right into the rebuild without considering mileage, maintenance and power. Besides, there's a relatively simple way to test for mileage and maintenance - it's called a leakdown test. Why not start here?

 

If you're planning on spending big money to build a big single/twin turbo powered Supra the cost of rebuilding the engine should be just part of the build budget IMO.

Sure, but exactly what do you mean by "big single" ... how "big" is "big"? In the mid-late '90s everyone was running around with 58mm turbos and a 67mm T04R was considered a big, laggy beast. Now, perhaps "big" is a billet 71mm turbo capable of 900rwhp? 76mm? 88mm? 91mm? etc. I can only agree with your statement if you mean 76mm+ as "big", since a 76mm+ turbo pushes enough power to hurt a bone-stock 2jz-gte in good condition.

 

Overall though, fwiw I do have to disagree with your general assertion that the rebuild should be part of the budget, primarily because of: 1) lack of precision around the word "big", and 2) your statement seems to imply 2jz-gte's are likely to be poorly maintained (otherwise why would they usually need to be rebuilt?).

 

I'm sure we can agree that a 2jz-gte with good compression&leakdown numbers can handle 850rwhp (6spd) or more without issue, bone-stock (properly tuned, and on race fuel, of course). This inherent 2jz-gte capability sets it well above many other ~3L Japanese engines, and even many larger displacement V8s as well. To me your generalized statement also serves to undermine this distinction. Again, please note that the guy on the other forum I mentioned is looking for 700rwhp from a 2jz-gte and wanted to start with the rebuild, because of what he read on this thread! Of course, were it a Honda or Mazda engine, the rebuild would be a 100%+++ must for 700rwhp. To me, the information in this thread was how generalizations can and do turn into nasty rumors and misinformation.

Edited December 31, 2010 by pwpanas (see edit history)

[Nic]

I agree the stock 2JZ-GTE engine is very strong and has been proven to be capable of handling around twice the stock power on a day to day basis, some have pushed it further than that, some engines have failed some haven't. These engines are between 8-17 years old now, a compression & leakdown test will only tell you so much, it won't tell you how much carbon build up is in there, how much wear there is, tolerances, bearing condition, oil pump condition, condition of seals/gaskets, etc.

 

When I did my GT35R conversion running 'only' 550hp the engine was a good many years old - I had no idea of the condition of the engine as it was a replacement from a scrapper. I used the car everyday so I wanted it to be reliable so took the decision to open the engine, get it cleaned, tolerances checked and rebuilt using replacement stock/aftermarket parts where needed. The cost of the engine 'rebuild' was a fraction of the overall build cost and for me was a worthwhile investment at the time. I could have just bolted the turbo on and it may have been okay, but in a few more years time would it still be running okay?

 

That's just my opinion, it's not 'generalising' or propagating 'nasty rumours', yes a healthy 2JZ-GTE engine is capable of handling a lot of power, the question is after up to 17 years and the fact that most of the cars in the UK are from Japan with mileage that is difficult to verify, how healthy is the engine?

Edited December 31, 2010 by Nic (see edit history)

[Tricky-Ricky]

I'm sure we can agree that a 2jz-gte with good compression&leakdown numbers can handle 850rwhp (6spd) or more without issue, bone-stock (properly tuned, and on race fuel, of course)..

 

Don't know where the 850WHP came from? as that would equate to near 1000 FHP:blink:

Its excepted that a good condition engine can handle between 5-600 flywheel BHP with reasonable reliability, and that UK BHP, but i wouldn't trust a std engine running 700 BHP without being fully paid up with all recovery companies and a healthy bank balance.

[Guest pwpanas]

I agree the stock 2JZ-GTE engine is very strong and has been proven to be capable of handling around twice the stock power on a day to day basis, some have pushed it further than that, some engines have failed some haven't. These engines are between 8-17 years old now, a compression & leakdown test will only tell you so much, it won't tell you how much carbon build up is in there, how much wear there is, tolerances, bearing condition, oil pump condition, condition of seals/gaskets, etc.

Actually, over 1000rwhp has been produced on an unbuilt 2jz-gte...more than three times greater than stock. ...and without exception, the engines that have failed have violated the sufficient-octane-to-match-boost-level rule. Maybe some are 17 years old, and maybe the shortblock has been replaced with a new oem Toyota shortblock. Maybe it has 200K miles, or maybe it's got 20K miles ... you just never know. Your guideline just makes all the worst-case assumptions without testing for these items. To me, you don't spend $$$ to fix sh*t that isn't broken. If your hp goal is within the capabilities of the oem 2jz-gte, don't ASSUME you have to build it.

 

When I did my GT35R conversion running 'only' 550hp the engine was a good many years old - I had no idea of the condition of the engine as it was a replacement from a scrapper. I used the car everyday so I wanted it to be reliable so took the decision to open the engine, get it cleaned, tolerances checked and rebuilt using replacement stock/aftermarket parts where needed. The cost of the engine 'rebuild' was a fraction of the overall build cost and for me was a worthwhile investment at the time. I probably could have just bolted the turbo on and it'd probably have been okay, but in a few more years time would it still be running okay?

Although it wasn't a 2jz-gte, I guess we'll never know if your investment was a waste of money...because you never gave your oem engine a chance to hold the power.

 

That's just my opinion, it's not 'generalising' or propagating 'nasty rumours', yes a healthy 2JZ-GTE engine is capable of handling a lot of power, question is after up to 17 years and the fact that most of the car are from Japan with mileage which is difficult to verify, how healthy is the engine?

Again, we agree on this point - so why not check/verify the condition of the engine *BEFORE* rebuilding, instead of putting forth a general rule that assumes the worst? To me, if you're not shooting for at least 900rwhp (6spd), you have to test the oem 2jz-gte prior to ASS-uming it needs to be rebuilt. Just mho.

[JamieP]

You wont get the numbers you talk of on our dyno dynamic/ maha dynos, 72mm turbo making 900rwhp is impossible on our dynos.

Edited December 31, 2010 by JamieP (see edit history)

[j_jza80]

Actually, over 1000rwhp has been produced on an unbuilt 2jz-gte...more than three times greater than stock. ...and without exception, the engines that have failed have violated the sufficient-octane-to-match-boost-level rule. Maybe some are 17 years old, and maybe the shortblock has been replaced with a new oem Toyota shortblock. Maybe it has 200K miles, or maybe it's got 20K miles ... you just never know. Your guideline just makes all the worst-case assumptions without testing for these items. To me, you don't spend $$$ to fix sh*t that isn't broken. If your hp goal is within the capabilities of the oem 2jz-gte, don't ASSUME you have to build it.

 

Although it wasn't a 2jz-gte, I guess we'll never know if your investment was a waste of money...because you never gave your oem engine a chance to hold the power.

 

Again, we agree on this point - so why not check/verify the condition of the engine *BEFORE* rebuilding, instead of putting forth a general rule that assumes the worst? To me, if you're not shooting for at least 900rwhp (6spd), you have to test the oem 2jz-gte prior to ASS-uming it needs to be rebuilt. Just mho.

 

IMO rebuilding the engine while going single is a very good idea. Wether the existing engine will take the power wouldn't be my issue, i'd do it with a view to it being 'preventative maintainence'. If the car's going to be off the road for a while, why not have this done at the same time?

[Nic]

Actually, over 1000rwhp has been produced on an unbuilt 2jz-gte...more than three times greater than stock.

 

We're talking UK thoroughbreds here not US My Little Ponies.

 

...and without exception, the engines that have failed have violated the sufficient-octane-to-match-boost-level rule.

 

So every stock engine that has failed at 1000rwhp was due to det? They'll have needed to strip the engine to determine that? Horses bolted, gate closed type of thing?

 

Maybe some are 17 years old, and maybe the shortblock has been replaced with a new oem Toyota shortblock. Maybe it has 200K miles, or maybe it's got 20K miles ... you just never know. Your guideline just makes all the worst-case assumptions without testing for these items. To me, you don't spend $$$ to fix sh*t that isn't broken. If your hp goal is within the capabilities of the oem 2jz-gte, don't ASSUME you have to build it.

 

We obviously have very different points of view. Perhaps I'm too much of a perfectionist; 'If something's worth doing...' and all that. If I followed your POV and just bolted on a turbo, every time I opened it up on a long pull it would always be in the back of my mind that something could let go. Some may want to take that gamble, me I'd rather make sure everything was in tip top working order from the beginning.

 

Although it wasn't a 2jz-gte, I guess we'll never know if your investment was a waste of money...because you never gave your oem engine a chance to hold the power.

 

Huh? A GT35R is a Garrett turbo not a car/engine type. It was a 2JZ-GTE Supra, full spec is in 'View My Supra' under my user details if interested. In hindsight the investment was a total waste of money, as the car was stolen the following year and a complete loss, but if I was to build another single turbo Supra I would follow the same principals.

 

Again, we agree on this point - so why not check/verify the condition of the engine *BEFORE* rebuilding, instead of putting forth a general rule that assumes the worst? To me, if you're not shooting for at least 900rwhp (6spd), you have to test the oem 2jz-gte prior to ASS-uming it needs to be rebuilt. Just mho.

 

The only way you can fully check/verify the condition of an engine *BEFORE* rebuilding is to open it up and check all the tolerances. Compression & leak down tests will only tell you a limited amount about the condition of the engine.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Nic (see edit history)

[Morpheus]

Anyhoo, back to the topic, since I just bought a VVTI and have the same questions regarding 'worthwhile upgrades while you're at it', is there anything VVTI specific like the engine mounts which need to be considered or a good idea to replace if keeping it stock?

 

The mounts have apparently failed as it vibrates at idle like a washing machine on spin cycle but is perfectly smooth at normal rev's.

 

There's also the tell-tale grey/cream sludge build-up in the oil cap after a while so have either got loose headbolts or a BHG to attend to at some point. Plenty of vapour out the exhaust too, which is another symptom and a slowly lowering expansion tank level. Been there, done that! Doesn't seem to be hurting performance much though, yet!

 

Will hopefully last until the truck is done.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Morpheus (see edit history)

[Tricky-Ricky]

We're talking UK thoroughbreds here not US My Little Ponies.

 

 

 

So every stock engine that has failed at 1000rwhp was due to det? They'll have needed to strip the engine to determine that? Horses bolted, gate closed type of thing?

 

 

 

We obviously have very different points of view. Perhaps I'm too much of a perfectionist; 'If something's worth doing...' and all that. If I followed your POV and just bolted on a turbo, every time I opened it up on a long pull it would always be in the back of my mind that something could let go. Some may want to take that gamble, me I'd rather make sure everything was in tip top working order from the beginning.

 

 

 

Huh? A GT35R is a Garrett turbo not a car/engine type. It was a 2JZ-GTE Supra, full spec is in 'View My Supra' under my user details if interested. In hindsight the investment was a total waste of money, as the car was stolen the following year and a complete loss, but if I was to build another single turbo Supra I would follow the same principals.

 

 

 

The only way you can fully check/verify the condition of an engine *BEFORE* rebuilding is to open it up and check all the tolerances. Compression & leak down tests will only tell you a limited amount about the condition of the engine.

 

 

at the first reply Nic, i tried to be diplomatic;)

And well replied to the rest, i suspect a somewhat blinkered attitude to the art of tuning.

[Morpheus]

We're talking UK thoroughbreds here not US My Little Ponies.

 

I thought the U.S. and U.K. engines were the same spec? If not, what's the difference?

[JamieP]

I thought the U.S. and U.K. engines were the same spec? If not, what's the difference?

 

He is referring to the difference in Dynos, the dynojet/ mustang dyno's they use seem to read a lot higher than the ones we use, this is backed up when i read talk of 700cc injectors being good for 700RWHP at 90% duty, we need 1000cc injectors to make 700RWHP on our dynos.

[Morpheus]

He is referring to the difference in Dynos, the dynojet/ mustang dyno's they use seem to read a lot higher than the ones we use, this is backed up when i read talk of 700cc injectors being good for 700RWHP at 90% duty, we need 1000cc injectors to make 700RWHP on our dynos.

 

Blimey, someone needs to sort out the calibration standards!

 

Where's the best place to take my car (for a dyno before I rebuild it in a couple of years), SRR?

 

I'm in Hemel Hempstead.

[JamieP]

Blimey, someone needs to sort out the calibration standards!

 

Where's the best place to take my car (for a dyno before I rebuild it in a couple of years), SRR?

 

I'm in Hemel Hempstead.

 

Yeah SRR is mainly what we use as a club, makes no matter if it reads high or low as we are all playing on the same field.

[JamieP]

Anyhoo, back to the topic, since I just bought a VVTI and have the same questions regarding 'worthwhile upgrades while you're at it', is there anything VVTI specific like the engine mounts which need to be considered or a good idea to replace if keeping it stock?

 

The mounts have apparently failed as it vibrates at idle like a washing machine on spin cycle but is perfectly smooth at normal rev's.

 

There's also the tell-tale grey/cream sludge build-up in the oil cap after a while so have either got loose headbolts or a BHG to attend to at some point. Plenty of vapour out the exhaust too, which is another symptom and a slowly lowering expansion tank level. Been there, done that! Doesn't seem to be hurting performance much though, yet!

 

Will hopefully last until the truck is done.

 

Facelift mounts are not as strong as pre facelift ones so if you plan on keeping it a while it may be worth upgrading to them, to swap you also need alloy cast bits as well as the mounts themselves.

 

Sludge on the cap is common this time of year but you should not be losing water so something may be up.

[Morpheus]

Ok, cheers Jamie

 

Chris Wilson said to get the older mounts and brackets so will sort it out when the weather improves.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Morpheus (see edit history)

[Guest pwpanas]

Don't know where the 850WHP came from? as that would equate to near 1000 FHP:blink:

Its excepted that a good condition engine can handle between 5-600 flywheel BHP with reasonable reliability, and that UK BHP, but i wouldn't trust a std engine running 700 BHP without being fully paid up with all recovery companies and a healthy bank balance.

Again, an 'unbuilt' oem 2jz-gte (with ported head and cams) made 1050rwhp (US-spec dyno) through a 6spd. Even if the US-UK dyno calibration is off by 20%, 700BHP should be a walk in the park for a 2jz-gte in good condition. Edited January 1, 2011 by pwpanas (see edit history)

[Guest pwpanas]

IMO rebuilding the engine while going single is a very good idea. Wether the existing engine will take the power wouldn't be my issue, i'd do it with a view to it being 'preventative maintainence'. If the car's going to be off the road for a while, why not have this done at the same time?

C'mon...a 57mm "single" won't put out more than 550rwhp (US-spec dyno). You'd really rebuild a perfectly-good 1000hp-capable (US-spec dyno) engine for a small single??? Why not rebuild the v160 as well? And the diff too while you're at it. Just because they can handle 1500rwhp (US-spec dyno) doesn't mean they don't need to be rebuilt too? Edited January 1, 2011 by pwpanas (see edit history)