SimonB Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by Terry S Ian, what is your take on this from the FAQ's "Second, you can't get rid of the airflow meter and use a MAP sensor. Even if you add the optional Greddy pressure sensor, you must still have an airflow meter in the system. The Greddy pressure sensor simply adds another basis for your fuel maps in the E-manage - you can use it to tune your fuel maps instead of the input from the airflow meter (very useful if your airflow meter has run out of range), but that's all internal to the E-manage. " Ok, this sort of makes sense. I think what they're saying is that the fuel map is basically a table of percentage adjustments to whatever the current duty cycle is. Normally one axis of this table would be the airflow meter reading. But using the add on MAP would mean that axis would now be the reading from the MAP sensor instead. So above the limit of the normal airflow meter you could have a map that added on extra percentages. So at the max of the normal airflow meter, say that the standard ECU is setting a 80% duty cycle. In your map you could then add on 10%, 15% and 20% at various MAP readings above that. Then you'd get 88%, 92% and 96% duty cycles respectively (obviously crap figures just for the sake of an example). So you basically you're just modifying the basic duty rate that the ECU has set, but you can modify it by different amounts based on the reading from a separate sensor. The difference from the SAFC is that you can increase the duty cycle above the normal max because it's modifying the signal to the injectors directly, and that you don't have to change the airflow signal that the ECU sees and mess up anything else that it uses that signal for. I think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam W Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Thats about the size of it Simon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by Terry S Ian, what is your take on this from the FAQ's "Second, you can't get rid of the airflow meter and use a MAP sensor. Even if you add the optional Greddy pressure sensor, you must still have an airflow meter in the system. The Greddy pressure sensor simply adds another basis for your fuel maps in the E-manage - you can use it to tune your fuel maps instead of the input from the airflow meter (very useful if your airflow meter has run out of range), but that's all internal to the E-manage. " My take is that you can't remove the AFM as the stock ECU needs it (obviously we are talking UK spec here) and the E-manage primarily controls the fuelling by altering this signal. Same applies for the stock MAP on a j-spec, you can't swap it out as it will confuse the heck out of the ECU or it simply won't understand it's output and revert to some sort of limp-home mode. So, if you max out the pressure sensor (1.25bar on a j-spec, I've no experience of the AFM on a UK spec) the stock ECU will deliver fuel according to it's map at 1.25bar* even if you reach 1.5bar. This is a can of worms, as with traditional Air Flow Controllers (AFC) like the Apexi AFC, you plug in a correction to the Air Flow (AF) signal at certain rpm points. This gets bloody difficult now, so bear with me You've got your bigger injectors plumbed in, right, and you use the AFC to reduce the AF signal to stop the engine from overfuelling. That's how these things work, not the other way round (use the AFC to increase fuelling on inadequate fuel injectors by moving further up the fuel map, a common misconception because it basically can't push the map past 100% now can it?) So. You stick in 550cc injectors, and roughly have to drop the AF signal by 20% for idling, cruising, light throttle openings. With hybrids installed, you may have to move up the airflow map under load to wedge in more fuel lower down the rev range. However. Once you get past 1.25bar, the ECU runs, theoretically (see * point at end), out of fuel map, so everything above 1.25bar gets the same fuelling figures... This means you have to tune it for your highest boost setting (plus some overhead for safety's sake) so that when the ECU thinks it's at 1.25bar it's fuelling adequately for whatever your highest boost amount is. So you map for say 1.45bar, intending to run 1.3bar most of the time. If I've not lost everyone and this makes some sort of sense, you can see that to be running OK at 1.45bar, when you are at 1.3bar you are overfuelling as you are still on the same chunk of fuel map. The ECU is seeing a clipped value of 1.25bar. The AFC can't see boost pressure at all, so it can't change the AF signal to compensate. At 1.25bar you are overfuelling by 0.2bar. At 1.2bar the ECU stands a chance of using a slightly lower-down part of the fuel map but the crux of the matter still remains - the AFC doesn't have a clue what boost pressure you are at so at WOT at 6000rpm it's still fuelling for 1.45bar. Anyway to finally answer your question Terry, the additional pressure sensor allows the E-manage to read boost pressure and tweak the fuelling according to boost pressure as well as rpm/throttle position - not only for the gap between the stock pressure sensor's maximum and your maximum boost pressure, but also across the rev range for when you aren't running full boost but are at WOT (for whatever reason). Phew. Bet you wish you'd never asked -Ian *Anyone got a clue if the stock ECU is in fact actually mapped up to the sensor's limit of 1.25bar? Or indeed, what pressure it is in fact mapped up to?! Probably a tad important if this is the basis of your tuning The lower down the ECU clips the pressure signal (may well be at fuel cut levels) the worse the accuracy of fuelling between that and your max boost level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Ian you're right.........I wish I hadn't asked:D My point was that by using the MAP sensor in conjunction with the MAF, the e-manage is doing a little more than just fudging the AFM signal. I really think this kit could work pretty well. It will never be a powerful tool in the way a Stand alone EMS is, but 90% of people don't need those features. It will be very interesting to see how this all pans out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_TC Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 *hijack* I just happen to have one or sale *hijack over* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Originally posted by Terry S Ian you're right.........I wish I hadn't asked:D My point was that by using the MAP sensor in conjunction with the MAF, the e-manage is doing a little more than just fudging the AFM signal. I really think this kit could work pretty well. It will never be a powerful tool in the way a Stand alone EMS is, but 90% of people don't need those features. It will be very interesting to see how this all pans out. I think I actually agreed with you in my post -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 I think you may have. I will try & stay awake the whole way through & check;) :D Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I received this link from Mohd last night. To make this kind of power one stock MAF is very impressive. It also gives a very nice little parts list. http://www.mohdparts.com/supra/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Looks good, damn smooth power and torque curves and more importantly, they are the same shape with all three runs so the dyno testing was consistent and therefore the results are much more useful. So, big single on an E-Manage, then? Hmm. -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam W Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Originally posted by Ian C So, big single on an E-Manage, then? Hmm. -Ian Will it make as much power as a big single on a Motec ECU? Hell no. Will it make more power than your current setup? Hmmm . . . quite possibly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Adam, why do you think a Motec etc will make significantly more power? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Spot on bespoke fuelling and ignition timing maps? Rather than a stock map mullered into shape -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 How much more accurate is the Motec than 16x16 then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Sorry that wasn't meant to sound dismissive. I am a big exponent of standalones and for a race car they will give better maps/performance, whilst having some nice race related features like datalogging, traction control and rev limit control, I just can't see them making a massive difference to a road car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I don't know to be honest This whole discussion is making me think about what I would choose to do now, argh. I've got a few pro's and con's, see what you think: Motec ECU Pros: *Ground up map for your engine *Years of history in the trade, so good support/community/2nd hand parts availability *Chris Wilson's tuning guru knows it inside out - speeds up mapping and gives me confidence in the end result *Does everything you want it to do and can probably do more Cons: *More expensive than the E-Manage *Needs cold start, idle, maybe aircon & lights idle-up mapping as well, which will never be as good as the stock ECU E-Manage Pros: *Cheaper than the Motec even when compared new E-Manage to used Motec *Piggybacks onto the stock ECU so no change to cold start or idling etc required *Can control ignition timing as well as fuelling *Can compensate for the clipping of the stock pressure sensor Cons: *Uses the stock ECU map as a base - this map is an unknown *Changes the active cell of this map by altering the airflow signal in order to control fuelling *Moving too far up or down this map can have knock-on effects such as altering the ignition timing *Complex mapping procedure due to all this - £'s and potential pitfalls *More of an unknown in the tuning industry I guess it's all down to my confidence in the product, the mapper, and the end result. I don't care if it's not squeaking out the last 20bhp because it's a bit rich. I do care if the engine blows up because it interpolation was inaccurate or the tuner didn't quite understand something. (I feel like that bloke off the Fast Show who can't make a decision ) -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam W Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I just see it as a better option when you're trying to idle big injectors, and run boost pressures double or triple what the Toyota ECU is expecting to see. The SAFC type devices seem to work very well on the 2JZ up to a point, but lots of the big-turbo cars have seen significant gains switching to (for example) AEM ECU's. For me it's even more important as my ECU is old hat compared to yours and I can't go as far with the piggybacks as you guys can before runnning into major problems. If I was going with a piggyback on a 2JZ then the e-manage would be at the top of my list for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 OK couple of things I think need consideration on the Motec Vs E- Manage debate: 1/. AFAIK CW doesn't map the Motec, he would need to bring in an outsider ( please correct me if I am wrong). As you know Ian I have a friend wth big Motec ties. He is of the opinion that most Motec mappers are from a Motorsport background and map road cars accordingly, i.e. not sure you'd like it as a daily driver. 2/. You would spend a small fortune trying to get the Motec cold start maps anywhere near as good as TMC. 3/. A plus side of a Motec/Autronic is the interface with wide band O2's for target AFR's. 4/. From what I have seen with the Autronic, and I am led to believe the same of Motec, boost control is not as accurate as with a Blitz DSBC 5/. The thing I very much like about the e-manage is that you always have the security of the stock map. If you want tosee a stock map buy a techtom unit. Adam, on those US cars finding more power I bet lots is from ignition, which the SAFC can't do. Also when you look at the number of sites the AFC does it really is limited. As you know I am not anti Standalone. Mine is a simple awesome tool, but then you move further & further towards it being a race car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted November 13, 2003 Author Share Posted November 13, 2003 (I feel like that bloke off the Fast Show who can't make a decision ) What a curse understanding can be. Now me, mercifully free from the manacles of intelligence, I can just blunder happily into a tuning decision..... Pete says he'll tune it, so I'm getting an emanage (hopefully I've already secured one). So Ian, you could wait and see if my car blows up before making a decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Terry S Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Cool Cliff, Canon Fodder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonB Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Originally posted by Ian C *Changes the active cell of this map by altering the airflow signal in order to control fuelling *Moving too far up or down this map can have knock-on effects such as altering the ignition timing Ah, but the point of the exta injector harness thingy is that you don't have to alter the airflow signal - you can leave it as is and add or remove injector duty cycle over whatever the ECU has decided on using the additional injector map. Or you can change the airflow signal if you want to, or do both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Originally posted by SimonB Ah, but the point of the exta injector harness thingy is that you don't have to alter the airflow signal - you can leave it as is and add or remove injector duty cycle over whatever the ECU has decided on using the additional injector map. Or you can change the airflow signal if you want to, or do both. Er, I'm saying that's wrong in a nice way With the extra injector harness you can *add* (and their documentation is clear on this) extra fuel to the stock map but if you want to *remove* fuel you need to 'trim' the airflow signal to do so, the injector harness map can't remove fuel. So if you have bigger injectors, and that's got to be a given surely, if you want an aftermarket ECU, you will be needing to trim the base map downwards via the airflow signal at non-high-boost loadings. -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Originally posted by Terry S OK couple of things I think need consideration on the Motec Vs E- Manage debate: 1/. AFAIK CW doesn't map the Motec, he would need to bring in an outsider ( please correct me if I am wrong). As you know Ian I have a friend wth big Motec ties. He is of the opinion that most Motec mappers are from a Motorsport background and map road cars accordingly, i.e. not sure you'd like it as a daily driver. Well, I did say "Chris Wilson's tuning guru knows it inside out ", not that Chris Wilson would be doing the tuning - admittedly the apostrophe is the wrong side of the s, but... Deffo motorsport background though. Surely if I tell the guy I want it streetable he should deliver that? 2/. You would spend a small fortune trying to get the Motec cold start maps anywhere near as good as TMC. You know that's my weakness, wanting no impact on daily driving such as cold start etc., damn you 3/. A plus side of a Motec/Autronic is the interface with wide band O2's for target AFR's. Don't know enough about how this would affect the tuning process yet to make a comment. 4/. From what I have seen with the Autronic, and I am led to believe the same of Motec, boost control is not as accurate as with a Blitz DSBC I was rather expecting the wastegate on a big single to control the boost? Actually I was thinking about having it set to the lowest boost for day-to-day/wet and plumbing in the AVCr to give me the option of higher boost if I want it. The AVCr may work OK with a proper wastegate to play with 5/. The thing I very much like about the e-manage is that you always have the security of the stock map. If you want tosee a stock map buy a techtom unit. Right, so it is possible to read to stock map. If I could have a look at that or speak to someone who has I'd feel a lot better about piggyback stuff. To me at the moment it's adjusting something I know nothing about, which can't be good Adam, on those US cars finding more power I bet lots is from ignition, which the SAFC can't do. Also when you look at the number of sites the AFC does it really is limited. CW is very adamant about ignition timing control as well. The E-Manage scores here in my book because it can advance and retard on a 16*16 map. As you know I am not anti Standalone. Mine is a simple awesome tool, but then you move further & further towards it being a race car. And I'm not anti-piggyback. I appreciate the both-sides-of-the-coin discussion. I'm considering the E-Manage more now than I was, I'm questioning my "big single = EMS, end of story" standpoint as I couldn't really argue for it 100% if I had to with what I know at the moment. The E-Manage can map using rpm against boost pressure, can't it? That would be much better than rpm vs throttle position as far as I can figure. The AFC is a bit pants compared to the E-Manage, yes, it's got about 8 load sites against two throttle positions, so that's 8*2 rather than 16*16 with 16*16 ignition control as well. -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Originally posted by Tannhauser So Ian, you could wait and see if my car blows up before making a decision. Please keep us informed, I'm very interested -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian C Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 And, in a fit of post whoring (four in a row, read it and weep, Supragal), what's Pete Betts quoted as a price to map it? -Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannhauser Posted November 14, 2003 Author Share Posted November 14, 2003 Oh yeah, the cost. I knew there was something I meant to ask. I will ask for a ball park figure nearer the time, but the first contact was only to find out if Pete would be prepared to do it at all. I'll let you know when I know. Cliff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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