UK spec acceleration + speed manual vs auto

[Scoboblio]

Almost as funny as those talking of the second turbo kicking in and losing the back end uncontrollably...on a stock car.

Total rubbish

 

 

Sorry John but I disagree. Ok so there's not a huge surge of power or a kick in the back from the 2nd turbo, but it can catch a lot of people out simply because of the extra power - every other car I'd driven before the supra would wheelspin if you gave it too much off the line - but once you were moving you could plant your foot to the floor and not worry. The supra is completely different, you can grip and grip and grip until that 4k mark, where on a wet road it will lose traction.

 

Again it's the ability of the driver and not the car that causes the problems, but this is where a lot of people get caught out (I nearly did), I simply didn't expect to lose traction when I was moving at 40 or 50 mph! Product of the FWD / small engined generation I suppose.

[Bobbeh]

Nope, nothing here. (I'm talking about stock eh?)

In fact I originally thought that turbo#2 was kaput when I bought the car, it was that flat.

Dude drove it and laughed - he said "they're all like that"

 

Mine IS stock and you deffo feel it, and it lights up the rears in the wet easily which isnt always fun.

 

Shut up Pete

[JohnA]

So you guys feel a 'kick' at 4Krpm and stock boost then?

We're not talking BPU here, right?

 

I had driven several supras before too, both JSpec and UKSpec and they all felt flat to me.

Mind you, 'feeling' is totally subjective and it always depends on what you compare it to.

 

The torque curve of the stock supra is very flat, so the feeling of 'kick' cannot be there even theoretically though.

 

The power goes up and up as revs go up --- maybe the people who felt like 'losing it' at 4k rpm were just exceeding the traction limits from that rev point upwards (power continues to rise until 5K+ rpm)

 

But the 'feeling' of kick is usually reflected in the shape of the torque curve.

A BPU supra has an obvious torque 'hump' at 4K rpm and that is why it feels so much quicker.

[Gazboy]

I am deffo stock- 250rwhp.

[Bobbeh]

Theres certainly a blip in my dyno recorded torque curve.

 

I thought the JDMs turbo kick was smoother due to the spool difference, but there is certainly one there John.

[JohnA]

http://www.max-boost.co.uk/stuff/supra/2JZGTE_powergraph.gif

 

OK, real curves can be slightly different, but can't be too far off, can they?

[Bobbeh]

My dyno at Thor : Note the blip I have another rolling road dyno sheet that I can get uploaded if you want to compare.

 

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robert.pogmore/bob_thor.JPG

[tbourner]

My BPU spec sheet is even worse!!

 

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tbourner/Car%20pics/images/supe/dyno1.jpg

[Bobbeh]

That doesnt look right!?! 2 blips? You have 3 turbos?

[JohnA]

My dyno at Thor : Note the blip I have another rolling road dyno sheet that I can get uploaded if you want to compare.

Looks like you have a 40lbft 'blip', mainly recovering losses at changeover.

I've got loads of stock graphs, yours is not untypical.

 

A 'blip' is not a 'kick' though, you know what I mean

If you've ever driven a car (or bike) with a wild torque curve, you don't forget it in a hurry.

 

A 100bhp nitrous shot would create such a kick for example.

Or when a large single comes on-boost.

 

Stock supras were designed to feel exactly the opposite --- so that they are predictable, docile and not end up in ditches.

[Bobbeh]

Well its certainly enough of a surge to upset the handling if you're not careful.

[JohnA]

If we call that a surge, then what do we call a 150lbft increase within 1500rpm?

 

...and what about singles that can produce *double* that?

 

It's probably a matter of degree, if someone comes from a mild n/a car they tend to think of the stock TT as a wild beast.

If you are used to wild turbos then it feels lame.

 

Subjective.

[Bobbeh]

Well of course, but its still a surge/increase no matter how you look at it, and one that comes in with a noticable kick. Im not gonna even try to compare it to a single spooling up.

 

That feels more like a plane taking off However, I've been in Secondjumps BL61 single and his felt very quick but very smooth, so not as noticable. His was an auto.

[Guest chiefvinso]

Wow, lets have a definition of the right word to use! lol

At 4k my car launches itself like a missile, you can feel the second tub come on song. If someone isnt used to this and is going around a slightly damp curve or straight line at low speed and guns it the tracy control will either help or if switched off they will twitch.

[Ian C]

Well of course, but its still a surge/increase no matter how you look at it, and one that comes in with a noticable kick. Im not gonna even try to compare it to a single spooling up.

 

That feels more like a plane taking off However, I've been in Secondjumps BL61 single and his felt very quick but very smooth, so not as noticable. His was an auto.

 

I think it's the quick changedown that upsets the car as well. Bang, down a cog, into twin turbo range, wheels spin up. And the driver wasn't aware it was about to happen if they aren't attuned to their autobox behaviour.

 

Singles are great Except I now have an 'on cam' tuning spike at around 5000-5500rpm and that surge of power breaks traction as well

 

I still say autos can be faster But manuals are more fun. For me. Personally like. I hate the feel of autos haha My god, could it be a personal preference choice? Could there actually be no "right" answer...?

 

-Ian

[JohnA]

...At 4k my car launches itself like a missile, you can feel the second tub come on song. .

Does it run stock boost?

[TLicense]

I stacked my car because of the auto box.

I was sat at a set of lights on a roundabout (For those of you who know the area it was the Banbury junction of the M40, at the roundabout going into Banbury after coming down the Brackley road - so effectively going straight over) So Anyway I'm at the light's the junction is right in front of me. It's going onto a dual carriageway, but I need to make a very slight left hand turn to get down the junction. (I mean VERY slight)

I hoon it from the ligths, and just as I start to exit from the roundabout, there's a slights bump as you join the D.C. As the car goes over the bump, and I start to gently turn left, the box changes up a gear. The combination of which lets the back break loos big style. I caught it but had overcompensated, so it snatched back the other way. I caught it again and was now looking at Armco as it had snatched again. Each time I compensated it had snatched (my overcompensation I admit) The next time it was pointed to the inside, I hit the brakes I ended up parking down a bit of a ditch into a bush. Luckily there was no damage at all. If I had been looking at the Armco when I'd hit the brakes it would have been a different story.

But anyway, the point is if the box hadn't had changed up a gear as I crested the bump, then I'm sure it wouldn't have gone. In fact I've proved it since going manual, by taking the same roundabout at the same speed and not ending up as part of the scenary.

So yes, the autobox CAN catch you out.

[JohnA]

RLTC would have prevented this whole 'shake-yer-booty' dance, wouldn't it?

 

(the more I think about it, the more important it feels to be)

[Bobbeh]

Yeah of course it will help, but we're talking about standard cars arnt we

[JohnA]

Yeah of course it will help, but we're talking about standard cars arnt we

 

well yeah, but the autobox behaviour is not the same as a torque peak, which I could not feel in any stock supra. I'm probably 'tainted' because I was used to extreme power from feck-all weight (bikes) so my sense of 'rush' is skewed. And the stock setup doesn't exactly induce a blackout now does it?

whatever...

 

I've also caught the autobox second-guessing me in roundabouts and didn't like it one bit. (used to manuals you see:D )

 

But the pathetic performance of the stock TC means that after any BPU stage RLTC is the next 'must do'. That's the impression I get anyway.

[chilli]

ooo I've been busy all day and I come back and see this thread has moved along a bit

 

So thats why the fastest supra in the uk, is and has been, for the last few years the manual crd supra!!!! IMO you cant beat a manual, ok so if your draggin a supe an auto might get off the line better (unless your experienced in dragging) but in normal driving, like what most of us do, how many of us want it deciding what gear you should be in?? like down shifting around a bend, and thus bending the car? ive read a few nightmare stories recently of the auto dropping a cog on a bend and spinning 2nd blower up at worst moment.

I wouldnt change my manual for the world im guessing im gonna get ppls backs up here, but at the end of the day, how often do you drag a supra??!?!! so what if its faster to 60 by half a sec or somethings daft and minimal like that, its clutching at straws. the manual is more of a drivers car at the end of the day

and that is my point of view towards the manual

 

By the way... i wouldnt dismiss an auto, ive heard how good they are, id just rather be in control of the cogs

 

well said dude. Stock for stock the supe manual is quicker according to official times anyway, and powerbraking with high stall converter etc, well now that's not a standard car anymore... so it isn't a fair comparison!

 

Auto's may be "easier" to launch, that doesn't make then quicker, there are sub 10s manual cars around, quicker than anyone on here I believe anyway so we can hardly claim that a manual is a limiting factor...

 

if you are serious about dragging the stock auto isn't even strong enough anyway, whereas the manual is mighty strong. And top end the lower losses and better gearing should make a difference that is worth having too.

 

It's a win win really, but I think we should all be happy with the choices we made, they're all good dammit! lol

 

Edit: and yep there has been more than one post over the winter of people loosing it when the auto decides it knows best, sod that, you going to drive it around in manual mode forever and settle for a 4speed box, not likely lol

[JohnA]

I think it's kind of futile (bordering to embarrassing) trying to flog an auto as a 'sports' platform.

The smaller number of gears, coupled with the inherent losses of a torque converter don't help either.

 

The auto system of the supra is good. Very good.

But it isn't manual. And neither is the Tiptronic.

 

I don't know how people get the 0-60figures they do, because I can't get them, not even close.

I'm sure that if I had a manual I would be hitting mid-4s easily. With the auto that looks unlikely.

 

As said before, if auto launches were as good (or better) than those of the manual, why would Toyota claim 0.6 seconds worse?

[Syed Shah]

LOL @ JohnA.

 

Arguing the fun factor and track benefits of a manual is one thing, but not launch ability.

 

Autos launch better full stop. Add more power, the auto gets into its stride, and the (driver of the) manual struggles.

 

A BPU auto Supra will out 0-60 a manual of similar power every time.

 

Also, on a proper Gtech (not the 30quid ones), my manual Supra gets 4.8 seconds to 60. While my much much less powerful, and heavier auto Soarer gets 5.1. What is using the power better?

 

If you cant break comfortably into the 4s 0-60 in a BPU auto Supra, your car is fcuked. And by the many things you say about Supra performance, I am pretty sure yours is.

[chilli]

As said before, if auto launches were as good (or better) than those of the manual, why would Toyota claim 0.6 seconds worse?

 

That's exactly it, they would have tested and tested again, like for like...

 

It seems that whatever you have, to get the best out of it you need to have ditched the standard TC for RLTC and have decent tyres anyway, these sort of things make much more significant differences in the real world.

 

A BPU auto Supra will out 0-60 a manual of similar power every time.

 

Not being funny but do you know something the multibillion pound Toyota doesn't? Maybe you ought to sell it to them and retire with a fleet of supras (manual of course )

[chilli]

Ok I've said my bit, I won't argue anymore (unless provoked lol) but I do have one valid question I'd like to know, if anyone has any experiences of it:

 

Manual + RLTC, Launch control and full throttle shifting - how good is it? How good can it be?

 

When I get RLTC i'd like both of these and I imagine this could be pretty insaine off the line, if you've got the balls to basically floor it and drop the clutch all the way lol

 

anyone tried it?