Hesitation / warning light combo

[Mike25tt]

Story so far!............Ive had the trusty Supe (94 Jap RZ TT)since May last year and it had been running spot on through out the Summer/winter. I took it to a rolling road event in December to see what it was putting out with basic mods (de-cat/hks induction) and it only managed 308bhp (flywheel) because it was denotating badly. I had it serviced - Oil change/Oil, fuel filter change/hks plugs replaced by ngk's, etc. The Supe then had over an hour on the dyno getting it set up right. NF Octane booster was added to bring the optimax up to Jap spec octane (which I now use all the time) and it managed 374bhp (fly). No detonation, spot on. I was also told that my ecu has a Mines chip in, which I didn't know about (can Thor re-map these?). Since all this has been done the Supe is def faster - standing start, through the gears, very responsive, spot on. However, when I'm tootling along with the traffic at between 40-60mph going to and from work and I get the opportunity to pass a slow mo, I put my foot down (not to hard) and the Supe hesitates for a bit before the turbo's kick in. I can hear them spool up ok as my foot goes down but it seems to go flat before it decides to shift. Also, whenever I do put my foot down (seems to happen above 60mph) my engine management light comes on, along with the warning light and both stay on for the rest of the journey. Can the hesitation and warning lights be linked?......Ive trawled through previous posts and alot of owners seem to have had similar probs. Im going to do a diagnostics check on Sat to firstly, find the faults and I'm also thinking of resetting the ecu. Is this the right thing to do?...........Im not an expert at the techi stuff and hopefully I've explained myself ok (to much to read I know!) but any help/pointers in the right direction from fellow Supra owners would be great.

[Jake]

Warning lights: That's what I would do, Check for stored error codes, reset the ECU, drive it then check for stored codes again.

 

What spark plugs are you using? What gap? When were they last changed?

 

What were they doing to your car on the Dyno for an hour?

 

Forget about Flywheel horsepower, the figure at the wheels or hubs is what matters and is more easily comparable to other folk's cars.

 

I wouldn't bother with octane booster. It's incredibly expensive for the tiny increase in octane rating it provides.

 

Thor can't remap stock or Mines ECUs. Nobody can, as far as I'm aware.

[Ian C]

A MINES ECU isn't remappable as far as I know. It may explain why you need octane booster but tbh octane boosters aren't going to give you +70bhp's worth of anti-det if you see what I mean, so christ knows what else they did unless it was all lies to make you spend money with them "remapping" the car How did they spend an hour on the dyno "setting it up"?

 

Anyway, you need to check the diagnostic codes before resetting the ECU or anything! This is a vital first step to figuring out what's wrong. Let us know what codes you get.

 

-Ian

[Ian C]

You wait for ages and get two replies at once

 

Our responses are similar Jake. Is that good for you or scary for me lol

 

-Ian

[Jake]

Our responses are similar Jake. Is that good for you or scary for me

That's the politest insult I've ever had on here. Thanks

[Mike25tt]

Thanks for the advice Jake.

 

HKS spark plugs were put in when I bought the car in May last year. These were changed in December and replaced with NGK's when it went in for the service. I was told that HKS plugs don't last that long and NGK are better????? I don't know what gap they are but I will find out.

Should I be using colder plugs?

 

I was given 3 dyno read outs showing a progression in bhp and other readings showing power/temp/air/fuel/boost etc. I guess they took various readings from the Supe for it to be on for so long but i'm no expert in the rolling road department.

 

If im wanting to go bpu, should I be changing the mines ecu?......and what would you recommend?

[Ian C]

HKS ones last longer than NGK but a) cost a fortune and b) don't like detonation at all... NGKs are good, I've run them. HKS iridiums are rebranded Denso iridiums, the ONLY differenceis that they cost shitloads more than the Denso ones (that I run now). You shouldn't need a colder grade if you are running stock boost levels.

 

Don't worry about BPU until the current setup is sorted

 

-Ian

[Mike25tt]

A MINES ECU isn't remappable as far as I know. It may explain why you need octane booster but tbh octane boosters aren't going to give you +70bhp's worth of anti-det if you see what I mean, so christ knows what else they did unless it was all lies to make you spend money with them "remapping" the car How did they spend an hour on the dyno "setting it up"?

 

Anyway, you need to check the diagnostic codes before resetting the ECU or anything! This is a vital first step to figuring out what's wrong. Let us know what codes you get.

 

-Ian

Thanks for the similar advice Ian!

Answer's to the "1 dyno special" above. I wasn't watching them take the readings so I took their word for it. They seemed professional enough anyway. I don't quite know what else they did to get 70bhp more, unless it was just a diff reading?????

 

Cheers for the diagnostic codes aswell. I will give you an update at the wkend.

 

Mike

[Mike25tt]

HKS ones last longer than NGK but a) cost a fortune and b) don't like detonation at all... NGKs are good, I've run them. HKS iridiums are rebranded Denso iridiums, the ONLY differenceis that they cost shitloads more than the Denso ones (that I run now). You shouldn't need a colder grade if you are running stock boost levels.

 

Don't worry about BPU until the current setup is sorted

 

-Ian

Thanks again Ian for the info.

 

.........so could that explain why they changed the hks ones? because of the det?......the hks plugs must have only been in for 7 months aswell.

 

So why do you think the Supe is hesitating? It didn't do it before the service but it's doing it now. Could it be that the gap isn't right?

 

Mike

[Jake]

I would put a new set of NGK BCPR7ES plugs in, gapped to 0.8 or 0.85mm and see if it improves the hesitation. They're only about ten quid for a set of six. Bad or incorrecty gapped plugs are sometimes a cause of hesitation and misfire type problems.

[dangerous brain]

If you have detonation do not under any circumstances put the iridium plugs in your car. Ask dude why. I've seen the direct result of what happens when the ceramic insert falls out of them which happens in heavy det situations (que one massive hole in a piston of an engine I gave him only 2 weeks prior) Water injection will help you with your octane problem alot better than octane booster crap. What you could do with doing really is getting hold of a proper normal ecu and sticking that in as I reckon thats your problem here.

[Mike25tt]

I would put a new set of NGK BCPR7ES plugs in, gapped to 0.8 or 0.85mm and see if it improves the hesitation. They're only about ten quid for a set of six. Bad or incorrecty gapped plugs are sometimes a cause of hesitation and misfire type problems.

 

Thanks Jake. I will look in to that.

[Mike25tt]

If you have detonation do not under any circumstances put the iridium plugs in your car. Ask dude why. I've seen the direct result of what happens when the ceramic insert falls out of them which happens in heavy det situations (que one massive hole in a piston of an engine I gave him only 2 weeks prior) Water injection will help you with your octane problem alot better than octane booster crap. What you could do with doing really is getting hold of a proper normal ecu and sticking that in as I reckon thats your problem here.

 

Cheers for that advice. My mate also suggested that I should get hold of a UK ECU. Would it matter which one? UK or JAP?

 

Cheers

Mike

[Lucifer]

Cheers for that advice. My mate also suggested that I should get hold of a UK ECU. Would it matter which one? UK or JAP?

 

Cheers

Mike

 

Yes you will need a J-Spec ECU. I have spare ones if you want one. PM me.

 

Maritn

[Ian C]

Thanks again Ian for the info.

 

.........so could that explain why they changed the hks ones? because of the det?......the hks plugs must have only been in for 7 months aswell.

 

So why do you think the Supe is hesitating? It didn't do it before the service but it's doing it now. Could it be that the gap isn't right?

 

Mike

 

Before there is all this talk of installing water injection and swapping ECUs... I smell a bad tuner smell. Changing the plugs that early, coincidentally for the most expensive ones on the market? Getting lots of det and clearing it up AND gaining 70bhp by adding octane booster? Oh, and an hour of mapping yet with no boost controller or aftermarket ECU what exactly did they map...?

 

I think you need a second opinion my good man. Did you hear the det or did they tell you it was there?

 

The fact it's now hesitating probably means they didn't use kid gloves with the coilpack connectors and have now broken/damaged them...

 

-Ian

 

PS get the fault codes 10p on a code 14

[Mike25tt]

Yes you will need a J-Spec ECU. I have spare ones if you want one. PM me.

 

Maritn

Thanks Martin. I will be in touch after I've got my codes sorted.

[Mike25tt]

Before there is all this talk of installing water injection and swapping ECUs... I smell a bad tuner smell. Changing the plugs that early, coincidentally for the most expensive ones on the market? Getting lots of det and clearing it up AND gaining 70bhp by adding octane booster? Oh, and an hour of mapping yet with no boost controller or aftermarket ECU what exactly did they map...?

 

I think you need a second opinion my good man. Did you hear the det or did they tell you it was there?

 

The fact it's now hesitating probably means they didn't use kid gloves with the coilpack connectors and have now broken/damaged them...

 

-Ian

 

PS get the fault codes 10p on a code 14

Thanks for the update Ian. Just to try and make this a bit clearer because I was shattered when I was reeling it off last night!

I bought the Supra in May last year from an import company in York and had the hks plugs fitted by their own mechanic. I then went to a rolling road event in December to a tuning company which, when on the rollers they detected detonation (wearing det cans), so I booked the Supe in the following week for a service with this tuning company and to sort out the det prob. When I picked the Supe up, they told me that they took the hks plugs out and put ngk's in (they didn't rate hks ones), so if it had been detting, then was they right in taking the hks ones out so early? (You did say hks ones don't like det at all), given it a full service, and put it on the rollers. They must have just had a gander at the ecu because they told me about the mines chip (which I didn't know about) and suggested that I buy an ecu that they can map.

 

.......All in all, the price they charged for the service/rollers was fairly reasonable. It def needed an oil change anyway! prob covered about 4000 miles from the time of owning the Supe................oh, and the r/r event was featured in this month's J-tuner (The dirty dozen!). An evo and a skyline were also detting and alot of gt4's were running rich. (so they didn't just single me out!)

 

.............I'm hoping you have hit the nail on the head about the coilpack connectors being damaged. The supe seemed to be running fine before the service (even though I couldn't hear it detting) and this hesitation has definately occured after the service. Is code 14 related to the coilpack by any chance?.......I will find out 2morr anyway!

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Mike25tt]

Just an update for the ppl helping me out on my probs with the Supe.

 

I have just got one fault code..................

.............which is No: 42 - Speed Sensor Signal Circuit.

 

Is that to do with the conversion not been correctly, from kph to mph?

 

Im gonna reset my ECU anyway.

[Mike25tt]

I reset the Mines ECU earlier today and took the Supe for a spin. The engine management light and warning light came back on when I hit over 60mph (Code 42 - Speed Sensor Signal Circuit).

 

How do I sort this out?

 

.......Also, the Supe still hesitates before the turbo's kick in. From a standing start it's fine, but when I'm moving and decide to put my foot down it hesitates and then decides to shift.

[Ian C]

OK, well, a code 42 usually means a gammy speed converter/delimiter job. If they have been poking around the ECU maybe they disturbed a bad connection on pin 2 (it's a pink wire, should be visibly tampered with ). You need to run the car under load above about 3000rpm for a few seconds for it to bring up the error, that's why it always seems to be at 60mph or so.

 

I read that rolling road report in J-Tuner, I wonder how much business they drummed up from it because they seemed to say everyone's car was either lean, detting, rich or a combination thereof... I had Clive Atthowe's in Norwich try it on with me back when I had my hybrids, about 6 months after CW mapped my AFC with the 550's in... They said it was running lean. Absolute bullshit, either they wanted business off me or they didn't think their rollers could take 450bhp

 

Anyway, the other telling thing is that there is no way for them to stop any det if it did exist without changing the fuelling, boost levels, or ignition timing. The fuelling and the timing would need a signal fudger ECU or a mappable standalone, or maybe upping the fuel pressure. The ignition timing needs a standalone ECU or an E-Manage. The boost level would need a restrictor ring. I don't think your car has any of those things, so wtf did they do exactly to get rid of the det? Fuck all, that's what.

 

Putting in NGKs is no bad thing as long as they used the correct ones Did they give you your HKS ones back, seeing as they cost about £100 for the set...?

 

-Ian

[Mike25tt]

OK, well, a code 42 usually means a gammy speed converter/delimiter job. If they have been poking around the ECU maybe they disturbed a bad connection on pin 2 (it's a pink wire, should be visibly tampered with ). You need to run the car under load above about 3000rpm for a few seconds for it to bring up the error, that's why it always seems to be at 60mph or so.

 

I read that rolling road report in J-Tuner, I wonder how much business they drummed up from it because they seemed to say everyone's car was either lean, detting, rich or a combination thereof... I had Clive Atthowe's in Norwich try it on with me back when I had my hybrids, about 6 months after CW mapped my AFC with the 550's in... They said it was running lean. Absolute bullshit, either they wanted business off me or they didn't think their rollers could take 450bhp

 

Anyway, the other telling thing is that there is no way for them to stop any det if it did exist without changing the fuelling, boost levels, or ignition timing. The fuelling and the timing would need a signal fudger ECU or a mappable standalone, or maybe upping the fuel pressure. The ignition timing needs a standalone ECU or an E-Manage. The boost level would need a restrictor ring. I don't think your car has any of those things, so wtf did they do exactly to get rid of the det? Fuck all, that's what.

 

Putting in NGKs is no bad thing as long as they used the correct ones Did they give you your HKS ones back, seeing as they cost about £100 for the set...?

 

-Ian

Yeh the pink wire has got a purple wire scotch locked to it. Is the purple wire part of the speed converter jobby then?......and yeh the warning light does come on at about 3000rpm. How do I sort that out then?

 

By the sounds of it then......I've basically been charged for the servicing and a few bottles of NF Octane Booster:blink:...............and no, I didn't get my HKS plugs back .......I wonder if they went in the bin or in one of their cars????????.......or do you reckon they would have been knackered anyway due to the det probs?.........hopefully they have put the correct NGK plugs in.

 

I took the Supe out to York last night and it was running well apart from the slight hesiation when pulling away. Once the power kicks in it's all good.

[Steve]

I would remove the scotch locks mate and solder it instead. Much more reliable