chilli Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 And you acuse me of fantasy? look in the mirror lol. We both know you cant actually prove either, as we were not there to witness the start. However we can dismiss many of the theory's (as I have just done) that are preached at us on BBC and the like. Just because science or evolution doesnt have a credible answer doesnt mean that we have to slag off any other possibility that you cannot disprove. I don't think you can dismiss anything at all! Nor should you be so quick to. Evolution is not dead, far from it. It might be refined or superseded (like Einstein’s theories supersede Newton's - but Newton's are still valid and to a first approximation (classical physics) they are correct). Like I say, arguing against a faith is by definition impossible to prove one way or another, but you can't use that prop it up to seem like an argument based more strongly based on fact than it really is. I asked for some science, you gave me some improbability. Where is the science in it? Does it actually have any at all? Does it stand up on its own, or does it just survive as a side effect of bashing down other theories and because of peoples desire to believe in God, a reason for living and so on and so forth? 100 Billion galaxy's? whats that the total output for mars since introduction of the bar? funny how its such an even number lol, I wonder is that to the nearest 20 billion or jus a great sounding made up figure by some astronomer lmao. You think my numbers are crazy lol. erm this is an approximation of course, no need to be so literal. Do you really think the exact number, whatever it may be would make any odds? Stars are created and destroyed all the time anyway, so are galaxies, so there is no exact number anyway. There are only orders of magnitude, and this one is massive by anyone’s approximation. Certainly not fantasy though, have you ever seen the pics from Hubble deep field, pointed at the darkest most empty (so it was thought at the time) part of space and left to collect photons for a while, what does it find, it's literally jam packed with galaxies!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Chief you seem to be missing the point anyway, it's not so clear cut as you seem to be making it. I heard a theory (yep there's that word again ) that there are 9 dimensions (I'm not sure how many there are supposed to be at the moment - that theory keeps changing!!!), we inhabit the 4th dimension, have control of the first 3 (X, Y, Z) and being 'dragged along' by the 4th (time). We can only guess very badly at what the other dimensions are (if they are?) and what they include, it's completely incomprehensible to us. But basically a 5th or 6th or whatever dimensional being could (we suppose) create and destroy us in the blink of an eye. It could be that we are creating or destroying 1 and 2 dimensional 'beings' all the time - we have NO concept of what a 2nd dimensional being is as we cannot possibly measure it (if it has NO width AT ALL). This is the same for higher beings, they may be doing it accidentally, or they may know what they are doing to us. It could be that the 'god' for us is in the 8th dimension, created our entire universe for fun, decided to send us 'his son' to teach us, attempting to be righteous at all times - another 8th dimensional being is slightly more mean and tries to sabotage this project, doing 'devilish' things while his sibling is away (I'm obviously using human interpretation here for what we can't understand). Sounds familiar? That's a scientific theory though nothing religious. Science can consume religion if it wants, that's the beauty of theories over truths, they can change easily. So I believe in science, doesn't mean I can't be creationist as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefgroover Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Trev, its called "creation sceince" I believe, so that a very fair statement. Chilli - The hubble data is very interesting indeedy, I was just poking fun at big estimate numbers, as I personally would rather say " I dont know the quantity" than work with wild estimates. I intend to read into it more in the future. Outside of this post (ok guys dont get sensitive, this isnt about you) most evolutionists I meet are dedicated (biased) against any explaination which involves a creator. They refuse to discuss the subject if that is included. To me thats subjective, and in my opinion pointless. Of course their mentor Dawkins has actually written this for all to see. A true scientist IMO is objective, and will never rule out anything thats he is not able to dismiss by proven scientific method. Life isn't easy, who said it was meant to be? who said we deserve a perfect life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonW Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Jon W, I am talking creation of however it came about here. If you want to get into theology, then do so but leave me out. I dont intend to become a punchbag for the frustrations of humans at odds with the world in which they live. In the continued absence of any SOLID and proven creation style (whatever you believe) I say why aviod a creator idea when there is NO proven alternative? Or is it just so easy to live in a creatorless world? is it easier to explain to yourself? whatever turns you on mate, in expressing my views I am not telling you how to think, but exploring the myths and proven lies that are PREACHED in schools to children to make then atheists like their teachers. You cannot prove or disprove religion until you bite the dust, so come back and tell us wont you lol. I was really just trying to understand from a creationists point of view what the events were that took place to lead us to the point that the planet is at now. You have mentioned floods etc I want to understand what occured after these floods according to your beliefs. For instance do you believe that man and dinosaurs inhabitted the planet at the same time? You have even mentioned an arc suggesting a beleif that land dwelling animals of today are only those that were rescued by a Noah like character. I'm not trying to criticise Creationism just understand it from the point of view of events and timescales? I understand what Christians believe to be true is this the same for creationists? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefgroover Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I was really just trying to understand from a creationists point of view what the events were that took place to lead us to the point that the planet is at now. You have mentioned floods etc I want to understand what occured after these floods according to your beliefs. For instance do you believe that man and dinosaurs inhabitted the planet at the same time? You have even mentioned an arc suggesting a beleif that land dwelling animals of today are only those that were rescued by a Noah like character. QUOTE] Ok I see where you are going with this. My apologies. Man and dinosaurs, yes I reckon they were around together. Why? well there are various datable (within the accuracy range of 14C) carvings on walls, symbols on tortoise shells fro the 12 to 14th century that have these dinosaur type animals on them. Now how did those people know what they looked like when they didnt dig them up and piece them together? Also there are people and dinosaurs in the fossil record, which I believe was formed all at once by a global flood, they way the conditions would be exact for a fossil record to begin. Noah didnt need even creature we see here today. He only needed those necessary as primary figures. Consider dogs alone, if he wanted one of each he could have filled the ark with dogs alone. Also who said creation stopped thousands of years ago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonW Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 That's exactly what I was after. So do creationists have views on how long ago this flood was? Also do you believe that the creator is also the one that decides which animals continue to live and which become extinct or is it the case that once a life form has been created it is then down to chance and survival of the fittest? The area I'm thinking of is dinosaurs. Did Noah choose not to bring them onto the arc and therefore they were all wiped out by the flood? Would Noah have taken many people on board or did he and his wife re-populate the earth, or did the creator re-populate the Earth. I must say that I beleive in evolution but am open minded to a different explanation if it seems realistic. My questions may seem somewhat childish but the answers to such questions must form the fundemental basis of a creationist belief? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supragal Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 OK, so some minister is at my work!!!! What! Walking round talking and preaching to people?!?! I think that is awful, if people want to worship that is their choice I should not be made to feel awkward sitting at my desk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 lol - well if your sure about your "take" on things - it wouldnt bother you... i love it when those blokes knock on my door on a sunday morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jspec Germany Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 roman catholic, but atheist by choice but aliens put us here I'll roll with that, or some other version. I'm just not a big follower/believer on what "the good book" says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I had a great conversation with some witnesses at my door - it ended up a bit like this thread except their responses weren't quite as well thought out and intelligible as some on here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 OK, so some minister is at my work!!!! What! Walking round talking and preaching to people?!?! I think that is awful, if people want to worship that is their choice I should not be made to feel awkward sitting at my desk! OMG that's awful. We had Virginia Bottomley come round our work once (Conservative MP for Farnham at the time) and it was horrible. Very cringeworthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 OMG that's awful. We had Virginia Bottomley come round our work once (Conservative MP for Farnham at the time) and it was horrible. Very cringeworthy. unfortunate name too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefgroover Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 OK, so some minister is at my work!!!! What! Walking round talking and preaching to people?!?! I think that is awful, if people want to worship that is their choice I should not be made to feel awkward sitting at my desk! Wahst this got to do with the evolution vs creation debate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefgroover Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Jon, rather than me put more time in here, you can check out http://www.answersingenesis.org. I dont know enough to put forward the full creation science view, I'll stick with what I know on intelligent design, rather than start guessing and estimating their view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefgroover Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 We seems to be repeating ourselves here too often. Could I respectfully ask that posters read the entire thread before posting. Saves going around in circles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jspec Germany Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 This is what I do when the spreaders of religion come knocking on my door: 1. get naked and adorn body with only a small towel, some cowboy boots, and a pair of Elvis glasses. 2. light a big stogie 3. grab a bottle of jack daniels 4. answer the door 5. invite them to come in and take a bath with me. They don't usually have much to say after that, nor do they come back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew7 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 We seems to be repeating ourselves here too often. Could I respectfully ask that posters read the entire thread before posting. Saves going around in circles. Do we really have to read all that boring drivel?.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 i wouldnt call it boring - informative at the very least Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 lol I'm taking a moment to reflect, but I may be back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefgroover Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Do we really have to read all that boring drivel?.... Do you have to read this thread at all ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefgroover Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 This is what I do when the spreaders of religion come knocking on my door: 1. get naked and adorn body with only a small towel, some cowboy boots, and a pair of Elvis glasses. 2. light a big stogie 3. grab a bottle of jack daniels 4. answer the door 5. invite them to come in and take a bath with me. They don't usually have much to say after that, nor do they come back. They come to my door also, usually J.W.'s and I dont start with them cause you just cant talk anything but their exact brand to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefgroover Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Chilli to reflect on what i have put forward for my lack of faith in the theory of Evolution, plus a few things i'd like to add. The fossil record does not support it. DNA suggests its pretty much impossible, the odds are staggering. The rocks say different, now the fog of unreasistic 14c dates have gone. The now better understood massive effects of water contradict it. The subjective personality of it's peers. The human body, bit too special to be an accident? (especially the eyes) Scientific evidence of a post flood Ice age. Vast amount of the animal kingdom could not have evolved, many would have wiped themselves out getting to this current form. Ice cores, showing data supporting the flood and creation. (Greenland & Antartica). Assumptions, the basis of many evolutionary arguments. Sea floor sediment, further evidence for a young earth. The missing links between man and apes. The geologicial evidence for very rapid strata 7 men seem to rule the earth from the grave, Darwin, Marx, Frued, Dewey, Kierkegaard, Wellhausen, Keynes, via there openly admitted anti-religous propaganda using evolution as a vehicle. Perhaps i should have Galton in there? The not so nice social issues I have described many posts back. Evolution is no foundation for a good, fair and non racist society. I could go on, but I have spent enough time in here, and I know you get my point, but i respect your freedom of choice, so enjoy whatever it is you find truer to your own heart. Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbourner Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Did Noah have to take fish on his ark as well? Where did the sperm whales sit? And where did all the water go afterwards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Peace Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 I think this is a great thread...its good to know the stats..so others will think before they say anything thats likely to offend others due to their ignorance...I respect ALL religeons and Im fascinated by their traditions...everyone is always welcome into my heart no-matter what they believe in. Im Roman Catholic by default...but my real religeon is 'People First' so I guess that makes me a 'Humanist' So 'Humanist' first....'Roman Catholic' second Just to insure that im considered for the Guest List when I get to the Purly Gates. My belief in this faith is only in a spirital way...im not a great believer in mans interpritation of it...or any other religeon...most important commandment to me is 'Love Thy Neighbour' the rest is bollox:innocent: Any Way...I dont want to go to Heaven coz it will be full of really boring people:flame: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew7 Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Sea floor sediment, further evidence for a young earth. The missing links between man and apes. Just watched a prog on TV about a piece of rock that has been dated at 400 MILLION years old.. Not exactly young then compared with the 10,000 years or so that self-aware man has been on the planet........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.