Pete Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Maybe its just emotion when someone dies that makes you pray to God or look to heavens for reassurance and comfort, I don’t know, but to have absolutely NO religious beliefs is strange. I must be strange then. I don't pray to a deity at funerals. I don't believe in an afterlife. Comfort is only received by interaction with my friends and family along with time. I believe there was some nutter wandering around claiming to be the son of a god that inspired the bible and lots of other very impressionable people of that age (that probably still thought the world was flat). Maybe this is why I enjoy the Life of Brian so much. I don't push my beliefs or knock those that have them. (Apart from the people that have beliefs and believe they're right and you're wrong so I'm going to kill you) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonW Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 To me religion is to the individual a way of avoiding the simple fact that when you die that is it, there is nothing more. A way to avoid excepting their own mortality. To the heads of religion it a way to control the masses by applying rules and using fear to ensure rules are followed. Oh I'm an atheist by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 To me religion is to the individual a way of avoiding the simple fact that when you die that is it, there is nothing more. A way to avoid excepting their own mortality. To the heads of religion it a way to control the masses by applying rules and using fear to ensure rules are followed. Oh I'm an atheist by the way. lol no kidding, me too no doubt. I think it is a way for people to give some meaning to their lives... it is a way to excert a huge amount of power and influence over the people, to some extent they become sheep to be manipulated Religious figures are very powerful people, even in this day and age! More powerful than leaders of countries in some respect, who else controls a vast mass of people accross international boundaries! Oh I really shouldn't be saying this, probably gonna make enemies with some people lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 The Little Boy and Fat Man bombs were used NOT as a first resort to bring the war to an end but as a last resort to prevent a bloodbath. I'd tend to agree, unfortunately this argument is weakened a lot by the fact they dropped two, when one would have been enough! Come to think of it, dropping just one on a major city was not right either - a demonstration of power could have been done elsewhere without costing so many innocent lives. Dropping the second was a irresponsible and reprehensible act. IMHO of course... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraStar 3000 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I must be strange then Yes you are. Get thee behind me, Satan Matthew 16:23. But he turned, and said unto Pete'r', Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Come to think of it, dropping just one on a major city was not right either - a demonstration of power could have been done elsewhere without costing so many innocent lives. Again, you have to look at it in historical context. Civilain cities and indeed civilians were regarded as legitimate targets by that stage in WW2, although it didn't start out that way. Shocking and borderline terrorism by today's standards maybe, but back then the idea was to destroy the enemy's ability and will to fight. The Germans bombed London and just about any other city they could fly to. We bombed Dresden and just about any other city we could fly to. The US firestormed Tokyo. If the war had stretched into 1946 Germany would have been making round trips to bomb New York and the rest of the East Coast. If a demonstration of power was all that was needed, then the US could have televised the Trinity test and put President Truman on at the end saying "Do you want some? Do you?" Don't forget that both the first A-bombs were firecrackers compared to modern weapons. Dropping them on a single, isolated military or industrial installation would probably only have necessitated dropping more on others. The biggest single impact you could have on a country by that stage in the war was to destroy a city, so that's what they did. Also, the after effects of nuclear warefare weren't fully understood until several years later. Back then nuclear weapons were regarded with an almost incredible naivety: Suggested peacetime applications proposed for them were propulsion for spacecraft and excavation for civil engineering! Before anyone jumps on me, I'm not trying to justify vapourising civilians to end a war. I'm just saying that I can't see how it could have panned out any other way by that stage in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJI Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Going back to the main point at the beginning of this thread about Iran having nuclear power stations..... I was watching a program a couple of nights ago after BattleStar Gallactica and it went into huge detail about why the US is so keen to have an influence in the middle east. It gave very convincing reason asto why the first and 2nd iraq wars took place and with those reasons it now highlights why they want to 'target' Iran. If you didn't see the program the main reason are as follows: Ever since the 70's the US realised that its own oil reserves would be gone within the late 80's. Indeed the US has now ran out of its main oil reserve and its economy DEPENDS on what is called the Petro-Dollar cycle. This being that the US prints dollars which they exchange for middle-eastern oil. The middle east then banks its dollars in the U.S. federal bank and in effect the printed dollar works its way back into their own country. A few months before the 2nd iraq war Saddam decided to trade his oil in Euro's and not Dollars..... according to a few insiders at the the Pantagon, they quickly drew up military plans to over-throw Saddam. Bush went into weapons of mass destruction mode and used this as a reason to attack. A few DAYS after entering Bhagdad the americans took control of Iraqs main oil pumping stations and they promtly converted Iraq's oil trade currency back to dollars. Just recently over the past half a year Iran has decided to create its own oil trade centre in the middle east. Guess what currency it has decided to trade in ? That's right... it has chose the Euro.... and therefore the U.S's ecomony looks unstable once again as the petro-dollar cycle may come to an end. Also in the same time period I think its more than just coincidence that the U.S. is now targetting Iran over its supposed Nuclear Power weapons program. In my view I think Iran is purely requiring more energy, and nuclear power is the cheapest way to create it. The U.S. seem to be doing their old routine of creating a threat so that they can go into control the countries oil supply. (just as a side-line I am also not a god follower.... i'd say that if more people knew about science the need for a god wouldn't arise. but everyone is entiled to believe whatever they want... its when they enforce their own beliefs onto others is where the problems arise). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 ... I think that those arguments can be used to partly justify the first one, to some extent. The second one - not really. From the 1st one the effects were known - not in detail but enough to know a second one was not required. Don't forget also that these things were tested before being dropped, rough calculations would have shown the damage exerted on a city. Yep they were small fission only devices, small by todays standards, still killed a lot of people though. One sent a strong signal, if only a few more days (not long in a war lasting years) could have been given to discussions, that would have saved a lot of lives. Typically of the west to rush in with overkill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I must be strange then. I don't pray to a deity at funerals. I don't believe in an afterlife. Comfort is only received by interaction with my friends and family along with time. I believe there was some nutter wandering around claiming to be the son of a god that inspired the bible and lots of other very impressionable people of that age (that probably still thought the world was flat). Maybe this is why I enjoy the Life of Brian so much. I don't push my beliefs or knock those that have them. (Apart from the people that have beliefs and believe they're right and you're wrong so I'm going to kill you) I sometimes wish that i did believe in a higher power so that i didn't believe when i die its lights out over. All the hard working till whatever age this shell decides to give up and what is there to look forward to at the end of it? A sleep forever!!! maybe i am a i'm not even gonna make any comments on the actual topic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 In my view I think Iran is purely requiring more energy, and nuclear power is the cheapest way to create it. The U.S. seem to be doing their old routine of creating a threat so that they can go into control the countries oil supply. (just as a side-line I am also not a god follower.... i'd say that if more people knew about science the need for a god wouldn't arise. but everyone is entiled to believe whatever they want... its when they enforce their own beliefs onto others is where the problems arise). very well said I agree! The Western world is good at justifying it's actions, especially by capitalising on the fear of a nation God botherers are ok so as they don't bother everyone else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Yes you are. Get thee behind me, Satan Matthew 16:23. But he turned, and said unto Pete'r', Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. I don't believe in Satan either (although I would find it easier to) Is that an actual quote? I'll have to get a tshirt with that on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 All the hard working till whatever age this shell decides to give up and what is there to look forward to at the end of it? Exactly. Kinda life changing thoughts in themselves eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraStar 3000 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Is that an actual quote? I'll have to get a tshirt with that on think so mate. btw: its Peter not Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I sometimes wish that i did believe in a higher power so that i didn't believe when i die its lights out over. All the hard working till whatever age this shell decides to give up and what is there to look forward to at the end of it? A sleep forever!!! maybe i am a i'm not even gonna make any comments on the actual topic! Well you can still believe in a higher power of a sort, a higher order without believing in God as such. Believe in evolution, progress, the human race, life in general evolving to be better, each of us is part of that, we have a fleeting glimpse to contrubuting to that process. In that sense we are all eternal, even if our own individual existance is short lived and finite... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Going back to the main point at the beginning of this thread about Iran having nuclear power stations..... I was watching a program a couple of nights ago after BattleStar Gallactica and it went into huge detail about why the US is so keen to have an influence in the middle east. It gave very convincing reason asto why the first and 2nd iraq wars took place and with those reasons it now highlights why they want to 'target' Iran. If you didn't see the program the main reason are as follows: Ever since the 70's the US realised that its own oil reserves would be gone within the late 80's. Indeed the US has now ran out of its main oil reserve and its economy DEPENDS on what is called the Petro-Dollar cycle. This being that the US prints dollars which they exchange for middle-eastern oil. The middle east then banks its dollars in the U.S. federal bank and in effect the printed dollar works its way back into their own country. A few months before the 2nd iraq war Saddam decided to trade his oil in Euro's and not Dollars..... according to a few insiders at the the Pantagon, they quickly drew up military plans to over-throw Saddam. Bush went into weapons of mass destruction mode and used this as a reason to attack. A few DAYS after entering Bhagdad the americans took control of Iraqs main oil pumping stations and they promtly converted Iraq's oil trade currency back to dollars. Just recently over the past half a year Iran has decided to create its own oil trade centre in the middle east. Guess what currency it has decided to trade in ? That's right... it has chose the Euro.... and therefore the U.S's ecomony looks unstable once again as the petro-dollar cycle may come to an end. Also in the same time period I think its more than just coincidence that the U.S. is now targetting Iran over its supposed Nuclear Power weapons program. In my view I think Iran is purely requiring more energy, and nuclear power is the cheapest way to create it. The U.S. seem to be doing their old routine of creating a threat so that they can go into control the countries oil supply. (just as a side-line I am also not a god follower.... i'd say that if more people knew about science the need for a god wouldn't arise. but everyone is entiled to believe whatever they want... its when they enforce their own beliefs onto others is where the problems arise). Thx for bringing this back on topic....interesting point..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colsoop Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Some very good posts in this thread. It makes for interesting reading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShox Posted January 12, 2006 Author Share Posted January 12, 2006 wow cant believe the response to this. AJI - your post is a good one. i missed that programme. i did watch The Last Word which I promptly complained to Ch4 for having such crap presenters and guests discussing 'why the arabs hate the west' - really disgusted at the quality of the people on there. Double standards, hipocracy, disregard for human life, manipulation of a region, paranioa, military interventions, sabre rattling - they are good starts. Where is the rogue state? Why is no body referring the US to the UN Security Council whilst they are busy developing satellites armed with LASER. Why is no one referring the US to the UN when the CIA, in protecting US interests, have caused millions of deaths and crippled economies in Indonesia, Angola, Cuba, Chile, Iran, Afghan, Iraq, in the former Soviet since 1946 (or 7?) Why is acceptable for the US to use white phosphorous (Pete Willie?) that burns victims in war zones and who are the only country using this not to sign a treaty to prevent use in civilian areas. Stinks. It makes my head hurt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I think that those arguments can be used to partly justify the first one, to some extent. The second one - not really. From the 1st one the effects were known - not in detail but enough to know a second one was not required. Don't forget also that these things were tested before being dropped, rough calculations would have shown the damage exerted on a city. Yep they were small fission only devices, small by todays standards, still killed a lot of people though. One sent a strong signal, if only a few more days (not long in a war lasting years) could have been given to discussions, that would have saved a lot of lives. Typically of the west to rush in with overkill Dude, check this out. You can't really call the 120,000 that died in the A-bombings "overkill". Even if you include the estimates 110,000 that died from the after effects. It sounds like a big number when yu see it on its own, but when you put it against the 62,000,000 total... Also, 150,000 civilians were killed in the totally conventional invasion of Okinawa - only one of the bloodbath island chain campaigns, but you never hear anyone complaining about that. There was only one A-bomb test before they were dropped. There's some interesting documents on the decision making process up to the dropping of the bombs here. As you can see there was a movement for the "demonstration" approach even from within the people involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 BOOM! http://www.michaellight.net/100suns/index.html Some amazing nuclear test pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitelightning Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Iran ? Sounds like Im goin on another sunny holiday Pass me the British Army, I think I will be needing that ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Ian!!! You captain of industry you...where have you been hiding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suprasport Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I sometimes wish that i did believe in a higher power so that i didn't believe when i die its lights out over. All the hard working till whatever age this shell decides to give up and what is there to look forward to at the end of it? A sleep forever!!! maybe i am a i'm not even gonna make any comments on the actual topic! i was brought up roman catholic and don't believe a word of it, and i totally know where your coming from, but think i would rather believe in aliens, if people do believe then good look to them especially if it brings them piece of mind. 1st commandment - thou shalt not kill. what are most wars about.? the crusades to start with somewhere in there is greed, what group is one of the richest in the world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chiefvinso Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Its human nature to destroy, IMO religion is used as a way of making it seem right to destroy. Even if we arent destroying, were fighting and scheming etc etc. (not me personally, unless the person next to me has scratched my car!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Guys and Gals, where did all this ultra emotive religion and anti-US stuff come from? An international panel is meeting to discuss whether Iran should be brought before the UN Security Council because they removed the seals on nuclear facilities placed there by the UN. The UN needs to determine whether it is safe for Iran to have a programme that could lead to the development of a weaponisable bomb when their probable enemies do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suprasport Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Guys and Gals, where did all this ultra emotive religion and anti-US stuff come from? err! cos its us and we always go off on one:dir: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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