Kopite Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 This is my issue: What speed should that be? On ice, I have slid cars at Exactly. My neighbours car slid off the driveway a couple of weeks ago, luckily no one was behind it. I don't think the driver can be blamed, calling them an arsehole like the person on the other forum did is out of order. As someone else said, nothing can be just an accident anymore, someones gonna get sued somewhere. It is just a terrible accident. No doubt the anti-car brigade and that North Wales copper will use this as ammunition for lowering speeds etc now, more speed cameras etc. Should spend the money teaching all car drivers about car control in different conditions etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyJawa Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 in the eyes of the law if any of us slide a car then it is considered loss of control..... the dangerous driving is then determined through a court depending on the situations. A copper can stop anyone at any time if there is a screech of wheels and can be booked for careless driving, (Or is it considered 'furious acceleration'?). IMO I think the driver in this accident could have avoided sliding if he/she appreciated that as the temperature was below 0 to not travel above a certain speed. To assume that because the road has been gritted automatically means that the road is not going to be slippy is grave assumtion and accidents such as these will happen again. The police have laid no blame on the driver as yet and hinted it was black ice, he/she didn't have a chance. They are not prosecuting either unless that follows but from the sounds of it won't - does that not say something? I've seen first hand what its like to hit black ice at just 20mph And another point is also that the temp was NOT below 0. It HAD got down to -1.4 during the night by this point it was day and above freezing...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARTIN R Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 The police have laid no blame on the driver and said it was black ice, he/she didn't have a chance. They are not prosecuting - does that not say something? I've seen first hand what its like to hit black ice at just 20mph And another point is also that the temp was NOT below 0. It HAD got down to -1.4 during the night by this point it was day and above freezing...... I have also had a serious off due to ice and I am just thankfull that I hit nothing and only had my pride dented. I had no time to react and was doing under 30mph My thoughts are with the families and the driver of the car, how do you get over that?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 judging from the photos in the Sun today, the car was an old AE86 rwd corolla - even worse on the ice if the driver wasn't used to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 No it wasnt, more like a FWD one that looked like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Oh alright then, that dodgy coffee this afternoon must have been sending me cross-eyed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyJawa Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 No it wasnt, more like a FWD one that looked like this Yeah it was the fastback 5 door version in that shape 1998-2001ish IIRC..... Also with engines that can't pull the skin off a riced pud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 At the end of the day it was a tragic accident, no more no less, and as has been said in previous posts the only thing to blame was circumstance. If the cyclists had cycled a little faster or the car had been a little slower, this never would have happened. I have seen cars overtaking on an snowy road in the Highlands of Scotland on a long sweeping curve in the road with their family in the back and think that is an accident waiting to happen, but nothing does !! Put it down to circumstance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Peace Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I was lucky enough to have borrowed a 4x4 Landcruiser over Christmas courtesy of JEM in Hendon...whilst driving in the Snow..I noticed other drivers doing stupid speeds even in the snow, not just other 4x4's but RWD's as well! Some real idiots on the roads... I drove it with the knowledge that although I had less chance of losing the vehicle on bends etc, others didn't so..I basically drove with extra caution due to the fact that at any moment a RWD or FWD could end up stacking me... Cyclists should also be aware that in Icy conditions the roads can in some respects become unpredictable...therefore part of the blame (if any) should lie with the Cyclists organisers who in some way sent these cyclists (unintentionally I'm sure) to meet their maker! Sounds harsh I know...but there are so many elements to this...! (The blame will bounce about...but I'm sure no-one as always will admit fault) I have driven at maximum allowed speeds on country roads, rounded a corner to be confronted by a herd of cyclists climbing a hill three abreast (at almost walking pace) thats like rounding a corner basically and seeing three people standing in the middle of the road. I'm sure this is a terrible accident...but for Cyclists to go out on a road during wintery road conditions in my view (and i used to cycle on wintery main roads myself as a child unbeknown to my parents) is almost suicide! Let alone the other dangers involved in cycling on a busy country road with a high fatality rate! Very sad news my sincere condolences to all involved...a tragic accident...and lessons have to be learned by US, the CYCLING COMMUNITY and of course the people who build and maintain roads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrickTT Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I think this demonstrats the lunacy of fixed speed limits and the current blitz on speeding (trying to make it as antisocial as drink driving as someone has said). The police say they aren't going to prosecute as the driver was well within the speed limit, but surely if he was travelling at 70mph on the same road , he would still have lost control, only now he would be facing multiple manslaughter charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imi Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 What are the chances though! This is a terrible accident, yes he shouldn't have been driving at that speed with icy conditions, but to hit ice, then slide into a group of cyclists! I'm sure we've all slid on ice, and sometime ended up on the wrong side of the road, that's just one of those chances we make when driving in very cold conditions. It's just such a shame those cyclists were there at the time. My condolonces go out to all the famalies involved, but mainly to the chap who saw his son die. whats the normal speed limit on this stretch of road.....if its 70mph and he was doing 50 or even then I personally cant see any reason to blame the driver at all. even if the max is 50mph and he was doing 50mph...how can you blame the driver.....he couldnt see the ice.....were there signs on the road warning for ICE? and it was during the day....-1.4C was at night.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 It's true to say fixed speed limits are a bit of a joke. The classic example being 4am on an dry, empty, straight motorway, being limited to 70mph verses an icy/snowy or even just wet twisty A/B road past pedestrians, cyclists, junctions etc and say being limited to 50mph. You could do 75 in the former example and get done for it, and do 50 in the latter (much more dangerous situation) and it's perfectly ok... I always see people going too slow when it's safe to go faster, holding everyone up and conversly going way too fast (although maybe legal) for the situation at other times! Not saying I'm a perfect driver but for me both of the above are not good and both can be potentially dangerous IMHO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJI Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 imi - the driver is the one who is supposed to be in full control of his/her vehicle at all times. Even if there is black ice and the car starts to slide, although once this has happened the driver has no control.... leading upto that point however the driver can make a decision to avoid the chances of a major crash IMO. Even though this is a freak accident and people say that nothing can simply be called an accident anymore.. if you look into the details there's always a considerable cause factor and in this case I think it was the driver not adusting the speed for the conditions. This is by no means saying that the driver intentionally disgregarded the probability that going round a slippery corner at speed would result in an accident, and its not saying that the driver is a bad person as a result. Just that every accident has a cause, and with a cause you have to apportion blame. Only by studying the end results of accidents you can appreciate how they happen in the first place. My place of work does accident studies throughout the Cumbria and North Lancashire area, and you wouldn't believe some of the accident causes that take place. The problem is that the cause factors are not publicised very well and its left to the public to find out for themselves on a first hand basis.. ie. when they are involved in accidents themselves. As mentioned this is totally my own opinion... its not for me to be judge and jury on such a tradic case as this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Problem with that line of argument Aji, is taken to it's conclusion none of us would be able to drive at all. When you take a journey from A to B, do you traverse the whole journey by foot first to make sure the route is safe? Ok, ice is more obvious, but on a normal sunny day, do you check for diesel on the road? Other bad drivers? Any one of 1 million and 1 things that might cause you to crash? No, and it would be pointless of course because you can't check and control everything! So, if then you had an accident (which is as it says 'accidental') then we must blame you? People have to accept that being on the road as a driver, a pedestrian, a cyclist, whatever comes with a certain amount of risk regardless of what you try and do about it. Not everything is under your control, and we don't need to blame everything on an individual in order to make ourselves feel better and more morally correct about it! Supposing you go out in your supe sometime and you get a blowout, crash and injure someone, well you could have checked your tyres more carefully, so we must automatically blame you? No, we need to blame the circumstances. Only if you were actually neglegent should we blame you, and in this particular case in Wales, no sign of neglegence has been found yet. So, blame the tragic circumstance, you don't have to apportion artificial blame to the driver to somehow justify it all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 imi - the driver is the one who is supposed to be in full control of his/her vehicle at all times. Even if there is black ice and the car starts to slide, although once this has happened the driver has no control.... leading upto that point however the driver can make a decision to avoid the chances of a major crash IMO. We're talking about this case not the dozens of accidents you might have looked at before. And therefore you views do not logically help in THESE circumstances. Taking your view to the extreme... "It was cold last night so I'd better not drive cause there MIGHT be ice." If we all stayed in cause we MIGHT have an accident no one would dare move a muscle. If YOU or I had been travelling for 30mins with no issue's an then hit a patch of black ice and skidded, are we in the wrong to have not forseen the future? FFS Of course not, we call it Bad Luck or an Accident. You can ONLY work with the information provided, upto X point on this journey I'd had no issue's then WHAM.... Same goes for diesel you can't see it...first you know about it you're backwards into a field. Maybe everyone should do as per rally drivers and walk the course first....yeah that'd be practical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Problem with that line of argument Aji, is taken to it's conclusion none of us would be able to drive at all. lol - great minds eh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 We're talking about this case not the dozens of accidents you might have looked at before. And therefore you views do not logically help in THESE circumstances. Taking your view to the extreme... "It was cold last night so I'd better not drive cause there MIGHT be ice." If we all stayed in cause we MIGHT have an accident no one would dare move a muscle. If YOU or I had been travelling for 30mins with no issue's an then hit a patch of black ice and skidded, are we in the wrong to have not forseen the future? FFS Of course not, we call it Bad Luck or an Accident. You can ONLY work with the information provided, upto X point on this journey I'd had no issue's then WHAM.... Same goes for diesel you can't see it...first you know about it you're backwards into a field. Maybe everyone should do as per rally drivers and walk the course first....yeah that'd be practical. YEYYYYYY!!! So eloquently done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 lol - great minds eh yeah lol, I'n our own way we both made pretty much exactly the same point with the same arguments, even down to walking the course lol glad I'm not alone on this. I think in todays society we always want to try and pin blame on someone or something (a company, a product). Half the time it is because ultimately we want £ as compensation and if you can blame someone (or something accountable like a company) then you can claim... Note: in no way an I saying that is the situation in this case - just a general comment on society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethr Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 ....we call it Bad Luck or an Accident.... WE might.... the courts might well call it "causing death by careless driving" and hand down a custodial sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 WE might.... the courts might well call it "causing death by careless driving" and hand down a custodial sentence. Of course, everyone wants to see justice has been served and someone has been punished for it, that way we can all feel slightly better about ourselves Until it happens (god forbid) to one of us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire148 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 A tragic accident, sympathies to all involved. My attention was grabbed by the news report in which the local residents were reported to have 'heard other cars skidding on the ice earlier'. Perhaps if they had taken the opportunity to warn the road users this could have been avoided ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 WE might.... the courts might well call it "causing death by careless driving" and hand down a custodial sentence. The prosocution service would have to PROVE BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT, that the driver was negligent. So far we know, the car hit ice. The car was travelling at or less than the speed limit. And probably at a similar speed to other cars. Earlier that same day another car had fallen off the road. Just spoken to a magistrate in my family and he wouldn't expect anyone to be BLAMED for this tragic accident, for these reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethr Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Just spoken to a magistrate in my family and he wouldn't expect anyone to be BLAMED for this tragic accident, for these reasons. This is a quote from "Brake -- the road safety charity" http://www.brake.org.uk "We want the charge of careless driving to be dropped. At present, the Bill is proposing that the penalty for this charge – which is brought when a driver’s driving is thought to have fallen ‘below the standards of a careful and competent driver’ – is increased from £2,500 to £5,000. This charge is often brought when a driver’s standard of driving has caused a death or serious injury and the penalty, in this situation, is evidently offensively low. Instead, we want the charge of death by dangerous driving, or serious injury by dangerous driving (see above), to be brought in all cases where a driver’s driving has caused a death or serious injury." The government is proposing that there should be an offence of "causing death be careless driving". What do you think will happen when that charge is available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 This is a quote from "Brake -- the road safety charity" http://www.brake.org.uk "We want the charge of careless driving to be dropped. At present, the Bill is proposing that the penalty for this charge – which is brought when a driver’s driving is thought to have fallen ‘below the standards of a careful and competent driver’ – is increased from £2,500 to £5,000. This charge is often brought when a driver’s standard of driving has caused a death or serious injury and the penalty, in this situation, is evidently offensively low. Instead, we want the charge of death by dangerous driving, or serious injury by dangerous driving (see above), to be brought in all cases where a driver’s driving has caused a death or serious injury." The government is proposing that there should be an offence of "causing death be careless driving". What do you think will happen when that charge is available? I've highlighted the bit you need to read again and again till you understand it. It does not mean that if you hit some one or something it's instantly your fault....it means if you're driving like a twat expect to get the book thrown at you...which is good IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 The government is proposing that there should be an offence of "causing death be careless driving". What do you think will happen when that charge is available? Everyone is too scared to drive? lol seriously though, won't change much for the majority, if you are unlucky enough to get caught out, then I don't think you would be calling it 'justice'. To live with the guilt for the rest of your life, that is punishment alone, this is a sad double whammy! Just because it is, or may become law, doesn't make it right. In the same way that the cyclists didn't want to get hit, but took the risk and we can't blame them for what happened. I'm sure the driver had no intention of hitting them and we can't blame him for circumstances out of his direct control. people get caught out by ice and other things, we are not all murderers because of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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