Gazboy Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Four cyclists, including a 14-year-old boy, have been killed after a driver lost control of his car on an icy north Wales road on Sunday morning. Three men, one 42, another 49, and a third in his 60s, and the teenager died instantly when they were hit head on, on the A547 near Abergele. The father of the dead boy suffered a broken leg. They were in a group of 12 from Rhyl Cycling Club. Police said a Toyota Corolla crashed on a bend. The driver had minor injuries. The cyclists were said to be riding in fine weather, in pairs and wearing helmets, when the accident happened shortly after 1000 GMT on the A547 Ludland Road. According to the Met Office, conditions were dry and the overnight temperature had been -1.4C. All the cyclists were from the Rhyl area and, according to the cycling club's website, its Sunday club was on a 60-mile trip between Great Orme and Llanrwst. Chief Inspector Lynn Adams, from North Wales Police, said the driver appeared to have lost control on a gentle left-hand bend, striking a wall and rebounding into the road. He said: "The driver has lost control because of the ice on the road. There is no indication to suggest that this is down to something like excessive speed. "Our best estimate at the moment is that the car is driving at something like 50 miles per hour. And on a road like this, that isn't excessive speed." Four other adult riders and three children in the cycling club group were uninjured but in shock. The car driver was also said to be "clearly traumatised". It is understood police were called to another accident on the same road an hour previously after a car lost control on the ice. The fatal accident scene is near the junction with Gors Road and police said both roads were closed while investigations are carried out. Scott Eccles, secretary of Rhyl Cycling Club, said: "There was a car coming the other way. There was a kink in the road and it was icy. "Apparently there had been an accident on the same stretch earlier. "The car lost control, went up the grass verge, and then it came across the road and into them. They were dead straight away." Mr Eccles said the section of road, which is generally straight but has one area with sharp bends, was known to be "dangerous". In September last year, the A547 in the Abergele area was named among the 11 most deadly roads in north Wales by police. Abergele councillor Richard Waters said: "Seeing cyclists on the road is quite a common sight here because it is a lovely area. "It is a big shock hearing what has happened - it is terrible news, absolutely dreadful." ________________________________________________________ Good to see the C+ forums being as heartfelt as usual: http://www.cyclingplus.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=85907 I think that the driver is going to be strung up when he/she gets out of hospital. Condolences to everyone involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Thank you Trevor McDonald - But I prefer BBC news Very sad accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazboy Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 It was BBC news.... It's probably a repost too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Good to see the C+ forums being as heartfelt as usual: http://www.cyclingplus.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=85907 WTF: Oh my God, that's appalling. I am so sorry to hear this. "Four cyclists have been killed and another eight people injured after an accident with a car in north Wales." But 'accident'? - isn't that pre-judging what happened here? What else does he think it could have been but an accident? They're all at it : The headline says 'crash' the article says 'accident' Personally I think it should be 'crash' until cause is established. It's probably 'crash' in the headline because it has fewer letters and fits better. The BBC often does this with car crash reports. Either way it is just awful.Can a crash not also be an accident? IDGI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 When I was purely a cyclist, and not a motorist, the chance of that sort of thing happening to me never crossed my mind. Since I became a car driver, it become more and more present in my mind whilst cycling. The last time I ever rode a bike, probably a year ago now and just a mile to the shops for a paper, all I could think about was how exposed and vulnerable I felt. A true accident for once, and tragic for all concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazboy Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 "Roger, there is always blame in these instances. The driver lost control and wiped out innocent cyclists - his fault, no argument. Why stick up for him? I hope he suffers for this for the rest of his life" Nice and balanced chap, wouldn't want him on a jury.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrickTT Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Saw this on the news, a tradgedy for all involved. According to the Met Office, conditions were dry and the overnight temperature had been -1.4C. ...He said: "The driver has lost control because of the ice on the road. There is no indication to suggest that this is down to something like excessive speed. "Our best estimate at the moment is that the car is driving at something like 50 miles per hour. And on a road like this, that isn't excessive speed." Dont want to make political points, but if the road was slippy enough for the car driver to skid, then surely 50mph WAS excessive speed. Surely North Wales, home of the speeding mafia, must realise that if the road is icy then the speed should be (much) lower than, say, a warm dry summer day when the police are no doubt ernestly nicking people doing 63mph on the same road. I hope everyone on here realises that you can't go as fast when its icy as you can when its warm and dry and that one day the powers that be might understand that a fixed speed limit, whatever the conditions, may be easy to police and can raise a fortune in revenue from fines, but has just cost those cyclists their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merckx Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Accidents do happen, horrible . My first thoughts were to blame the motorist because mostly in the past they have found to be at fault. I used to be a member of cycling club aswell, went out on a Sunday for a long ride. Been knocked off my bike twice by careless motorists. I wouldn't feel too safe nowadays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toyotasuprauk Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Accidents do happen, sadly this was a terrible one but I dont really think it was the fault of the driver, maybe the road wasn't gritted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoboblio Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 "This disgrace to the uniform is making apologies for a a homicidally reckless arsehole who has destroyed four families. " I've stopped reading now because the blood is about to start spurting out of my ears. How many of these t**s have ever driven down that road? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Terrible, saw this on the news, looked horiffic The whole "crash" vs "accident" thing is a bit to subtle for me, what's the difference? I presume the difference is that a crash is where the driver is at fault somehow, where as in an accident, the driver is not at fault somehow? I heard there was ice on the road, kinda 50/50, half of me thinks it was the drivers fault for not driving appropriately, half of me want's to blame the ice. No one wants to have an accident like this, need more details on the cicumstances. Still whatever was the cause, it doesn't change the outcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shovels Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 What are the chances though! This is a terrible accident, yes he shouldn't have been driving at that speed with icy conditions, but to hit ice, then slide into a group of cyclists! I'm sure we've all slid on ice, and sometime ended up on the wrong side of the road, that's just one of those chances we make when driving in very cold conditions. It's just such a shame those cyclists were there at the time. My condolonces go out to all the famalies involved, but mainly to the chap who saw his son die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJI Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 IMO the driver was totally to blame. If there is a chance of ice then you don't drive over 30mph say for arguments sake around a corner. I think people put too much trust in road salt to get rid of ice when it simply doesn't on certain situations, and as a driver if you automatically assume that on an icy day there is not going to be a slippery road then he/she shouldn't be on the road in the first place. If he was driving accordingly and unfortunately hit a big patch of pure ice then yes there would be a case of loss of control and a slide..... but if he/she that was driving was driving at only 30-40mph then I can't see how he caused so many to die. A 30mph impact on a bike with a car - due to the high nature of the seating position on a bike I think the usual statitics from our works database say you are only likely to receive a few broken bones. (As the rider usually travels over the car and doesn't take a perpendicular impact). For there to be as many deaths then the driver was obviously travelling much more than 30mph... probably around the 60mph area... and in my view to enter a corner at such speeds on an icy road puts the blame on the driver. Its is one of those freak shock accidents.... a few seconds either way and the whole thing would have been completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyJawa Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 He was driving on a road that had been gritted by the council at 5:30pm the night before. How many of us would therefore assume the road would be fairly safe and free of ice bearing in mind it had been gritted an only dropped to -1.4C...... Its a terrible accident, nothing more, and if anything the council should get equal grief for not fully gritting the road properly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Good fcking grief! With Ice or diesel on the road you've got next to no chance. It's a terrible accident. Nothing more, nothing less. I do hate it when idiots grab half the facts and decide they know everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 If you want to blame anyone - as now-a-days nothing's allowed to be just an accident - then how about the council for leaving the accident black spot alone and not sorting it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snooze Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Unfortunately, people seem to judge the driver based on the result, not on what actually happened. If he is guilty of dangerous driving, then surely every driver who ever skids at all is also guilty of dangerous driving whether they hit something/someone or not? The report says someone else had earlier crashed at the same point in the road. Surely that 1st driver is guilty of the same crime as the 2nd driver? After all, they both did very similar things just at different times (just unfortunate timing for the cyclists and the 2nd driver). Also, instead consider: If the driver had been doing 20mph but still skidded into the cyclists, this time just causing a few bruises - is he still driving dangerously? Do we grade how dangerous someone is driving by the amount of damage done? If so......what if he drives at 20mph, but skids into a bunch of cyclists, pushing them over a cliff edge. Is it dangerous driving now? It's difficult, because in some cases, drivers can clearly be guilty of dangerous driving, but IMO it's another one of those big grey areas that is so hard to police and even harder to handle in the justice system....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 yeah it was just an accident, people from this very forum have lost it (without even needing ice) and skidded off and damaged nothing but their pride and car, we don't then try to burn them at the stake because of it. This essentially was the same thing except with a horrific outcome due to the circumstances. If he was driving too fast for the conditions then he is guilty of that and no more! It's the drivers intentions that matter. If he intended to go too fast for the conditions then he deserves to get appropriate punishment for that alone. We can't jude him for the tragic outcome, unless we can be sure he intended to crash into the cyclists - something which I'm sure no one believes true for a moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colsoop Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 yeah it was just an accident, people from this very forum have lost it (without even needing ice) and skidded off and damaged nothing but their pride and car, we don't then try to burn them at the stake because of it. This essentially was the same thing except with a horrific outcome due to the circumstances. If he was driving too fast for the conditions then he is guilty of that and no more! It's the drivers intentions that matter. If he intended to go too fast for the conditions then he deserves to get appropriate punishment for that alone. We can't jude him for the tragic outcome, unless we can be sure he intended to crash into the cyclists - something which I'm sure no one believes true for a moment. Spot on post. The need to blame someone is a way of coping with trauma ! I wonder though if it had been one of us involved and driving the supra would people automatically assume we had been speeding ?? I ride a lot for excercise reasons and it can be a bit hairy sometimes some drivers do get a bit close but the events mentioned in the news sound to me like a tragic ACCIDENT- until proven otherwise ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJI Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 in the eyes of the law if any of us slide a car then it is considered loss of control..... the dangerous driving is then determined through a court depending on the situations. A copper can stop anyone at any time if there is a screech of wheels and can be booked for careless driving, (Or is it considered 'furious acceleration'?). IMO I think the driver in this accident could have avoided sliding if he/she appreciated that as the temperature was below 0 to not travel above a certain speed. To assume that because the road has been gritted automatically means that the road is not going to be slippy is grave assumtion and accidents such as these will happen again. The company I work for is responsible for road management in our area and I see alot of accidents where drivers assume they are travelling on roads which are totally safe even in tepereatures below -5. Road salt only increases freezing point by only a few degrees and some drivers fly round as though its only a wet road. At the end of the day the driver is to be in full control of their vehicle at all times and the cause of the accident IMO was the car sliding on ice. It is a tragic accident and deserves a lot of respect but at the same time I think its good to discuss this as it will bring awareness to winter time driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethr Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I'm sure we've all slid on ice, and sometimes ended up on the wrong side of the road, that's just one of those chances we take when driving in very cold conditions. Possibly, but the penalty for making a mistake is about to increase if you are unlucky enough to kill someone. Slide on ice, end up on the wrong side of the road, bury car in hedge, charged with careless driving, points and maximum fine of £2,500. Slide on ice, end up on the wrong side of the road, hit pedestrian / cyclist / motorcyclist causing fatal injuries, charged with causing death by careless driving, penalty up to 5 years in gaol. Pure luck is going to decide whether you end up inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snooze Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 AJI - good points, and if you believe that anyone that loses traction at any point should be punished then you do make a very valid case. One question, though: IMO I think the driver in this accident could have avoided sliding if he/she appreciated that as the temperature was below 0 to not travel above a certain speed. This is my issue: What speed should that be? On ice, I have slid cars at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black cat Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 shockin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJI Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 very true Snooze.... cars can slide at any speed on ice.... therefore it could happen to any one of us. And the question you ask about whould have been the right speed to travel is an important one. Its very hard to jude how much grip a car has on varying slippery surfaces.... and when you are going to hit pure black ice where you have next to no grip at all. But what I've mentioned in my previous notes is that he/she must have been travelling at some inappropriate speed in order to kill the amount that they did. To travel at Our place of work is currently looking into pro-active cats eyes..... these clever little things start flashing red when the road surface temperature reaches 1 degree C. I think it takes accidents like these to get local councils to react and spend some money on these new innovations instead of going for the cheap option all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 If we can get prosecuted for sliding because we are 'out of control' - virtually every supra owner in the country should get done, along with the rest of the general public! To me, the punishment should match the crime, not an outcome which is down to circumstance. If sliding your car is such a crime, you had better lock me up asap! Think it's easy to get on a high horse about this, don't forget that with the best will or intention in the world, some things are and will always be out of your control, unless you want to surrender your license and give up driving right now!!! Ok, so deliberatly driving dangerously, that's a different ball game, but we can't assume that because of the circumstances (like was said above, the car you drive, your age, your social class all prove nothing!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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