Tannhauser Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 It is perfectly possible to have an evolutionary stable strategy that allows for a ratio of natural parenting and adoption (same sex or otherwise, makes no difference) Goodness me, I bet that's the first time 'evolutionary stable strategy' has ever been mentioned on here. Interesting thread. Three points: 1. I think Mr. Headroom was concerned about this 'minority liberal' viewpoint gaining hold and becoming a new norm. But isn't that how all new ideas spread? You could equally say that Christianity started as a small, pressure group. Or universal suffrage. New ideas have to start somewhere. 2. There also seems to be an argument that 'it isn't right, because it isn't natural'. So: because we are biologically equipped to raise kids as mixed sex couples, then it is morally 'better' to do so. But biology rarely tells us anything about morals. It's 'natural' to let anyone who falls sick to die, for women to die in childbirth and maybe to smash the skulls of the next tribe down the road, or anyone weaker and older than ourselves who gets in the way. Few would argue that letting those things happen is right because they are 'natural'. 3. Re: bullying. Kids' attitudes to being gay are changing incredibly quickly. Most of the more educated 16-18 year olds are, in my experience, pretty OK with it and would never seriously bully anyone for that reason. I anticipate that this will filter down to most younger kids within a few years. You'll never stamp it out, kids will always find something to pick on, but I don't think in most neighbourhoods, a gay couple are necessarily consigning their adopted kid to a lifetime of abuse. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the gay adoption thing, just adding my 2P. Or 8p as the case may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkey Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 I'm sure a gay couple are quite capable of raising the child, providing for it, just in the same way as a hetrosexual couple. That said - I agree with Chris. Consider - the effect on the childhood of the child. Growing up etc. It's not about being anti-gay - bottom line is .. the needs of the kid must be put above .. the idea that a gay couple can raise a kid in the same way as a hetro couple. A kid should have a balanced up-bringing at home and socially with other kids. I personally think - that there are things that a gay couple can never provide a kid .. such as a balanced upbringing. Just because a gay couple are capable of raising a kid in the same way as a hetro couple ... doesn't mean that they should Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Goodness me, I bet that's the... agreed, agreed and agreed - well put (and yes it might be the first and maybe last time ESS will be mentioned on a Supra forum lol) A kid should have a balanced up-bringing at home and socially with other kids. I personally think - that there are things that a gay couple can never provide a kid .. such as a balanced upbringing. WTF is a "balanced upbringing"? can you define it and say how say a single parent also has it but a same sex couple does not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkey Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 can you define it and say how say a single parent also has it but a same sex couple does not? Don't think that was my point. But to answer to your question - my half-sister is a single parent .. and my father & myself are the only male-figures in my 9year old nephew's life. With that - I would consider that a balanced upbringing. My nephew did get a little confused - when he's seen my sister's friend and her partner hold hands and take windy walks .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supralookin Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 I'm not homaphobic Damn right your not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supralookin Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 My questions is: How would a child (brought up to understand male & female values) relate to the world in such a "strange" atmosphere. I am not saying that "Gay" couples are a strange or weird concept but it's not exactly something you see each day. If you ask me, I'd say it's due to a huge shortage for foster/adoption parents and the Goverment see it as a way to cast these parentless children off. Sad but true. Can you imagine a whole new culture going: "Oh! No way (bend's hand), "ohh suits you!" I was brought up with a Mummy & Daddy, there still together after 27 years. It's taught me what and how a companionship/relationship is meant to be based on. It wasn't always rosy. But, I'd kill for what they have. Not sure if a same sex child could understand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl0s Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 We accept peoples differences and that's fine, but when you are bringing a child up, there's also a possible problem of nurture and that basically you'd be risking (?! ) having your children growing up gay. I suppose those gay children can't have more gay children too easily so at least the problem doesn't lend itself to simple propogation, however imagine a future society where every couple are gay and lesbian, and the lesbo daugters shag the other families gay sons as a service so that children can still be had and the human race can continue. "They're taking over the world :grr:" I was expecting at least a mini-reaction night all x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supralookin Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 "They're taking over the world :grr:" I was expecting at least a mini-reaction night all x Carl0s, don't hide your feelings. U Puff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supralookin Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Mmmmm this has sparked some deeper inner thoughts. I have had numourous lesbian fantasies and on the odd occasion fulfilled them BUT I could not see myself bringing up a child with 2 Mummys. I like the whole man vs woman senario. I'd rather turn a blind eye to the whole debate and still believe that in the world a man loves a woman and a woman loves a man. Not Adam loves Tony and Eve loves Julie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraStar 3000 Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 I have had numourous lesbian fantasies me too!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Don't think that was my point. Your original point was that just becase they are capable, doesn't mean they should and you suggest the shouldn't because it would lead to an inbalance of some sort. To that I tried to bring you your attention that the inbalance is no worse than it is for the most common form of parenting (other than the regular two natural parent family of course) - that of a single parent, which no one seems to have a problem with. But to answer to your question - my half-sister is a single parent .. and my father & myself are the only male-figures in my 9year old nephew's life. With that - I would consider that a balanced upbringing. Well from that you shoot down your own argument lol. So according to you, it's ok for single parents because generally there will be a balance of the sexes amongst the wider family and you give an example of this. Ok, so if that is "balanced" and ok then, why wouldn't a similar suitation be ok for same sex parents? Are you suggesting that having same sex parents means that the child won't have wider relatives (or friends) of the opposite sex? It's no different to single parents! I think that line of argument is a dead end lol... I think unfortunately the true subtext here is that fear that the 'inbalance' might lead to a child that would also be homesexual. All the arguments here really seem to stem from the same origin... I'd rather turn a blind eye to the whole debate and still believe that in the world a man loves a woman and a woman loves a man. Not Adam loves Tony and Eve loves Julie. THis is about what is best for the CHILD and has nothing to do with the parents sexual preferences! I'd rather believe in a world where parents love and care for their children and vice versa regardless of other, unrelated cicumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkey Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 I have had numourous lesbian fantasies and on the odd occasion fulfilled them Mmmmm .. me too! Can I watch ? hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkey Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Your original point was that just becase they are capable, doesn't mean they should and you suggest the shouldn't because it would lead to an inbalance of some sort. To that I tried to bring you your attention that the inbalance is no worse than it is for the most common form of parenting (other than the regular two natural parent family of course) - that of a single parent, which no one seems to have a problem with. Well from that you shoot down your own argument lol. So according to you, it's ok for single parents because generally there will be a balance of the sexes amongst the wider family and you give an example of this. Ok, so if that is "balanced" and ok then, why wouldn't a similar suitation be ok for same sex parents? Are you suggesting that having same sex parents means that the child won't have wider relatives (or friends) of the opposite sex? It's no different to single parents! I think that line of argument is a dead end lol... I think unfortunately the true subtext here is that fear that the 'inbalance' might lead to a child that would also be homesexual. All the arguments here really seem to stem from the same origin... To be honest bud ... I can't be fecked to argue with you. You have your thoughts .. I have mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supralookin Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 To add to this: When the law changed regarding same sex couple's "rights", I listened to a male aged 32 cry his heart out on centuryfm.co.uk national radio. About the anguish of telling his family and coming to terms with it for himself. Now if you ask me, he sounded like he needed help. Not exactly the type of person I'd expect a successful child to be nurtured from. Nuff said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supra-Dupra Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 I wouldnt let em i in me car never mind near kids.....turrets would kick in about now if they asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 To add to this: When the law changed regarding same sex couple's "rights", I listened to a male aged 32 cry his heart out on centuryfm.co.uk national radio. About the anguish of telling his family and coming to terms with it for himself. Now if you ask me, he sounded like he needed help. Not exactly the type of person I'd expect a successful child to be nurtured from. Nuff said. So on the back of one individuals radio phone in you assume that every other same sex couple must need help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 I wouldnt let em i in me car never mind near kids.....turrets would kick in about now if they asked. Am I the only one who didnt understand what that was about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supralookin Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 So on the back of one individuals radio phone in you assume that every other same sex couple must need help? Nope, but it didn't exactly put my confidence in them as good parents. Living close to Blackpool I see many a young Gay men. Confused, strange and lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyJawa Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Right - I've not read all this thread, the beer in me says I can't be arsed I read the first page and TBH something bugs me about the way people talk about this..... I have nothing against gay or lesbians etc at all, good luck to them - but they are not allowed to MARRY. The legislation passed allows them to form a CIVIL PARTNERSHIP. They do not get married, nor do they have a "WEDDING RECEPTION". Getting married is for hetrosexual people, and homosexual people get a partnership. Arrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh! Oh, and no, don't agree with adoption so sue me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supralookin Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Maybe I am being a little harsh here. As a woman who LIKES MEN, I don't get it. No really, I don't. Men don't have the most attractive parts but for a woman a woman's body is sexy. Urhhghh, an ass being f!!5ked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Nope, but it didn't exactly put my confidence in them as good parents. Living close to Blackpool I see many a young Gay men. Confused, strange and lost. Let me get this right. Because one gay man sounded neurotic on a phone in, that has dented your confidence that gay people can make good parents? And on your second point, I guess you have never seen a straight female or male looking confused, strange and lost then eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supralookin Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Right - I've not read all this thread, the beer in me says I can't be arsed Me 2! I just jumped in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supralookin Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Look, I don't have a problem with "Gay's". I just don't like to think it's a form part of my "world". I don't get it no. I blame Frankie Goes To Hollywood! All that talk about "relax", brought another meaning to the tunnel. Urghhh:kissass: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupraStar 3000 Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 I have nothing against gay or lesbians etc at all, good luck to them - but they are not allowed to MARRY. The legislation passed allows them to form a CIVIL PARTNERSHIP. They do not get married, nor do they have a "WEDDING RECEPTION". Getting married is for hetrosexual people, and homosexual people get a partnership. Arrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh! Oh, and no, don't agree with adoption so sue me I thought this too! Its a Civil Partnership, not a marriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supralookin Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 Its a Civil Partnership, not a marriage. Good job too, or I'd think the world had gone completely mad:looney: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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