It's all very well using a cheap oil but.......

[Digsy]

I think there's a general misconception here about what the 2JZ engine is all about.

 

To put it into perspective (and not detracting anything from the Engineers who put it together) its a mass-produced, cast iron blocked, fixed geometry (apart from the VVTi) lump putting out 108 bph/litre in stock TT trim and 73bhp/litre in stock NA trim, revving out at 6500-ish. Its also a design which is knocking on for fifteen years old.

 

What it is not is a very highly tuned, low production volume screamer which requires mollycoddling through every service interval. You can tell that from the daft power figures that the big single guys extract from largely stock engines seemingly without failures. It will have been put through a very demanding test and development regime during which it will have been assumed that only routine servcing using bog standard (not necessarily poor quality) semi synthetic oils and stock parts will have been carried out. Why? because Toyota don't want Mr. and Mrs. Public who wants a nice car but isn't necessarily a motor mechanic coming back every five minutes complaining that their car is broken. In this respect the 2JZ is exactly the same as a 1.0 litre Corsa engine.

 

It may be special to us, but the 2JZ is a pretty run of the mill engine - albeit an extremely well engineered one. Mass produced engines aren't very glamourous regardless of how powerful they are because thel all have to pass very similar durability tests. If you want a true exotic that needs plenty of TLC then buy something that is tuned to within an inch of its life straight out of the box and probably had a very low-budget test programme like a TVR or a Noble.

 

As I've said time and time again, once you start modding you can safely bin all of the durability work that Toyota did and do whatever servicing you feel happiest with, using whatever you want. Saying "an engine will run better and longer using a high quality synthetic than a semi or straight mineral oil" holds true for any engine. Suggesting that the 2JZ in stock form specifically requires a high quality fully synthetic simply to stop it going wrong is simply not true.

 

A caveat on this is that there will be many 2JZ engines which are approaching 100,000miles and that is probably pretty much where Toyota stopped testing. After this point it might be worth upgrading what you put in the filler cap to give your engine a little extra protection.

[oilman]

Here is a relevant extract from the link we're talking about:

 

Chevron Supreme Synthetic Motor Oil is formulated with 100% synthetic base stocks and advanced additive technology giving exceptional stability, long life and performance.

 

 

Are you saying that this could still be hydrocracked (modified mineral oil)?

 

Or is that a general cut'n'paste statement not specific to the oil we're talking about here?

 

It is important for me to know because I use this oil.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

I'm saying that it's a Group III hydrocracked oil, Chevron are one of the main companies to use this process in their oils.

 

Cheers

Simon

[JohnA]

So when I think that I'm using a fully-synth oil I really am using a glorified mineral oil, right?

[Guest Terry S]

Suggesting that the 2JZ in stock form specifically requires a high quality fully synthetic simply to stop it going wrong is simply not true.

 

A caveat on this is that there will be many 2JZ engines which are approaching 100,000miles and that is probably pretty much where Toyota stopped testing. After this point it might be worth upgrading what you put in the filler cap to give your engine a little extra protection.

 

Think that nails it.

[oilman]

Ching............................

 

“HYDROCRACKED” (HC) or MOLECULARLY CONVERTED (MC) BASESTOCKS

 

Petroleum oil basestocks can be put through a super-extreme refining process called “hydrocracking”.

 

These are extremely high performance petroleum basestocks, but they are not truly synthetic the way that most people understand the term and will not perform to the same level as a premium synthetic oil like PAO (poly alfa olefins) or Esters.

 

Hydrocracking involves changing the actual structure of many of the oil basestock molecules by breaking and fragmenting different molecular structures into far more stable ones. This results in a basestock which has far better thermal and oxidative stability as well as a better ability to maintain proper viscosity through a wide temperature range - when compared to a typical petroleum basestock Group I & II.

 

Cheers

Simon

[oilman]

Just to add, imagine a layer of marbles all of uniform size and this is effectively what proper synthetics are, made in labs for a specific purpose.

 

Hydrocracked oils because they are petroleum derived are more akin to a layer of different sized marbles.

 

Replace marbles with molecules and that's what you have.

 

Cheers

Simon

[JohnA]

So when a manufacturer claims to be using 100% synthetic base stocks we should be safe in knowledge that our marbles are all uniform in size -- or else they are lying and trying to mislead us, right?

 

Looks like the oil I use passes your strict criteria then.

 

Thanks Simon.

[oilman]

Unless you clarify what the basestocks are (Group as mentioned above) then it could be either.

 

Your marbles are not uniform in size mate, you had it right first time!

 

Cheers

Simon

[michael]

*watches carefully and prepares to dust off 16L of Chevron from the back of the garage*

 

[JohnA]

Unless you clarify what the basestocks are (Group as mentioned above) then it could be either.

 

If it could be either, then we're back where we started, aren't we?

 

None the wiser, but at least no explicit reason to discard Chevron fully synth as 'lawnmower' stuff.

[oilman]

I have stated already that it is Hydrocracked oil (petroleum based) as Chevron uses this method for production of their "synthetic" basestocks.

 

Cheers

Simon

[JohnA]

I am sorry Simon to appear inept, but I am only of average intelligence (if that!).

That's why I ask straight questions, because sometimes I can only handle straight answers.

Finally I got a straight answer to this one, and thanks for pointing out the fact that a company like Chevron uses deceptive marketing double-talk to make us see their hydrocracked petroleum-base crap as '100% synthetic base oils'

 

I will investigate this con, so that others won't fall for lies and misrepresentation.

 

Nice one Simon.

[Chiefgroover]

John, forget the oil issue, smoke weed, get laid and chill out dude, your risking a heart attack :-) Merry Christmas !

[oilman]

Don't waste your time John, read John Rowlands comments that I posted, it is perfectly LEGAL to label hydrocracked oils as synthetic since the US court ruling.

 

Germany is the only exception in Europe where they have to be properly labelled.

 

Cheers

Simon

[Pete]

it is perfectly LEGAL to label hydrocracked oils as synthetic since the US court ruling.

We're not in the US?

[oilman]

It doesn't matter, it's still legal here to label an oil as synthetic so long as it has a % of hydrocracked oil in it.

 

Cheers

Simon

[geoffvalenti]

Call me a cynic, but I be a lot more worried about perceived oil quality and (mis)labelling, if the information we were being given about the type of oils we should be using (if we care about our cars ) didn't come from someone who's business is to sell the stuff.

 

I'm not doubting what Simon says about the oils and their different categorisation, I wouldn't dare, I'm sure that he's forgotten more than I'll ever know about the technical side of oil manufacture.

 

What I will say, is that I see posts from Opie oils on various different forums, and usually they seem to be either playing on the "How much do you care for your car?" theme or the "All is not what it seems when you buy a fully synthetic oil". Either way, spreading alarm and despondancy to car enthusiasts throughout the land.

 

But have no fear, just a quick phone call and the right (read expensive) stuff for your car can be winging its way to you.

 

I'm with Digsy on this issue, if Toyota recommend an oil, its not just a choice out of a hat. They will have carried out extensive testing, probably to destruction, to determine which oil(s) are suitable for which particular cars.

 

Toyota recommend a 10w-30 mineral oil for the Supra.

 

Reading Simon's posts about hydrocracked oils, by all accounts they are apparently better than mineral oils, so eminently suitable for a Supra that spends 99% of its time on the road.

 

Drastically modified or race oriented cars are an entirely different proposition. They are often stressed to levels never remotely approached by road cars and therefore need, and can take advantage of, the superior lubrication qualities of top specification oils.

 

Simon is correct in what he says about the differences between the types of oils, but I feel that emotionally marketing oils, (by saying things like "All I can say John is, it's your car and money. and

If you don't care for the science or what quality you put in your car, that's fine it'll probably do the job" ) and recommending vastly over specified lubricants to, easily tempted, car enthusiasts who on the whole, lack the product knowledge, but feel that they want to do the best for their cars is, with the best will in the world, over zealous advertising and to my mind, morally wrong.

 

None of us mind spending money on our cars if it's deemed necessary, hell, some of us spend it just for the sake of it

 

It's when we take advice from an expert, and said expert seems hell bent on selling the most expensive product regardless of the end use, that it gets a bit over the top (A bit like going to PC World, for those of you in the IT business )

 

I've got no doubt that the best synthetic oils available are vastly superior to the best mineral oils, and in certain criteria are mandatory for lubrication duties.

 

What I do doubt is that the 2JZG(T)E in standard, to mildly modified trim, even remotely begins to meet those criteria.

 

Therefore, whether we love our cars:love: or not Good quality mineral oil (as recommended by Toyota, or (hydrocracked) "fully" synthetic changed regularly is the lubricant of choice. Anything better won't do any harm, but I seriously doubt whether it will do any good either.

[JohnA]

...it is perfectly LEGAL to label hydrocracked oils as synthetic since the US court ruling.

in similar lines, I've always wondered what the minum percentages are for 'semis'

If you dilute 1% synthetic into dyno oil, is the final product eligible to be marketed as 'semi-synthetic'?

 

Germany is the only exception in Europe where they have to be properly labelled.

So much for EU-wide standardisation then:D

Thanks to the internet checking on this might be easy though.

[imi]

Thats a good post there Digsy....

 

Food for thought

[SUPRALOOPY]

mobil 1 i've been using it since i bought the supe??? is that wrong:drown:

[Pete]

Thats a good post there Digsy....

 

Food for thought

It's the same as I've said all along...