dandan Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 Hi Guys, Got a quick question (which i have already searched for!!!): I'm looking to buy a mkiv and the owner tells me it has 24 point adj dampers. He's showed me the adjusters in the engine bay but he does not know the make of the kit. Can anyone tell me the names of any 24 point adjustable suspension kits around. Car is 1996 imported in 2000 with this suspension fitted. Thanks in advance............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 have a look on takakaira what colour r they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 18, 2003 Author Share Posted June 18, 2003 thanks eyefi i haven't looked underneath but i'm sure he said they were green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyefi Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 hks "hipermax performer" has 30 settings?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 18, 2003 Author Share Posted June 18, 2003 hmmmm, he definately said 24 to me, but a few other things he's told me were a little iffy....not in a bad way just misinformed! i'll keep looking, cheers eyefi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 Originally posted by dandan thanks eyefi i haven't looked underneath but i'm sure he said they were green Probably Tein, and if so budget on replacing them soon.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorin Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 Originally posted by Chris Wilson Probably Tein, and if so budget on replacing them soon.... Do I take it from that you don't rate them very highly from a longevity point of view Chris? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 Originally posted by Thorin Do I take it from that you don't rate them very highly from a longevity point of view Chris? I don't rate them very highly from ANY point of view They are utter *rap IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 18, 2003 Author Share Posted June 18, 2003 hi chris can you remember the conversation i had with you a while ago about going to look at a Jap spec 1996 facelift (whether it was worth me doing a compression test etc) and the possibility of you checking ot over? well, this is the car. guess what...the suspension is knocking at the back both sides but seems worse on the left. Seems a lot worse on "difficult" uneven road surfaces. any ideas what the problem could be (dampers, mounts, permanent damage to car itself??) i know this is a bit of an open ended question but a reasonable diagnosis would be handy for bartering thanks for any advice again chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 If it's got Tein shocks on it, it's probably those. They are notorious for knocking, leaking, having too little droop and having bizarre and disparate, side to side, damping ratios. A pair of Armstrong lever arms from the sixties would be preferable, even early 1900's friction dampers All IMHO of course.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 18, 2003 Author Share Posted June 18, 2003 any idea of a rough cost for a decent set of rear springs and dampers including fitting via someone like yourself chris? you can pm me if you don't want to post any rough figures up here are all the teins cr@p then? what would you suggest? apparently these ones have been knocking since the owner bought the car in 2000 and he isn't too worried! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 IMO the best set up for a road car that may do the odd track day are my custom valved Konis with my custom progressive springs, but at 1200 quid a full car set, fitted and geometry reset thay aren['t cheap. (Nor do I consider them expensive and those with them seem over the moon...). I also like the stock factory Toyota Bilstein set up. For a cheaper option Koni do a stock type qulaity damper, and you could then use stock rear springs, which even at Toyota prices can't be THAT dear, surely? It's always best to fit a full car set though, rather than just one "end". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 Chris can a stock ride height car be made to handle what you consider well as i have a 'speed hump'problem and my current system seems to 'squirm' when 'pressing 'on . John:flame Dev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 18, 2003 Author Share Posted June 18, 2003 seen as i'm used to hammering little cars round corners that stick like sh*te to a blanket..... i'd like to go for something fairly decent giving good grip and hopefully some degree of feedback and predictability! ... but not so hard as to be bone jarring on the road. how do your konis compare to the std uk and jap dampers chris, and is there any form of adjsustment to damping or ride height? if not, then what sort of ride height am i looking at, the car has 18x10 on the rear with 285 40's i THINK any chance of a price just for the rear...funds are gonna be a little restricted for a while if i do buy the car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 My kit drops the front about 18 mm and the back 10mm from stock, the car doesn't benefit from being radically lowered, all the suspension kinematics go to pot. I prefer the car on 17 inch stock width rims personally, most handling problems i see are due to overly wide rims with the wrong offset, too low a profile tyre for the stock bushings to control, or silly mismatched dampers and springs. The car is superb on the factory option Toyota Bilstein set up. My Koni kit gives a compliant around town ride, but tightens up very rapidly in roll, so cornering under duress is much more secure. It also puts the power down better than stock. I can supply whatever you like, but I have the springs made in batches of 4, and don't want to be stuck with fronts only. Whetether the springs you have will fit stock type seats which my konis use, can't say. They may also be a different rate and / or ride height. Needs thinking about carefully. See if anyone has some stock springs they can sell you and then fit a pair of stock type Koni Sports on the rear, if you want a cheap but reasonable option. Won't be good if the fronts low and rock hard though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Martin F Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 I know Chris probably won't thank me for this , but i think it's only fair to mention that some of the Tein dampers can be rebuilt. I have no idea of the costs involved but may be worth looking into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 18, 2003 Author Share Posted June 18, 2003 thanks chris, as always - really appreciate your opinion. i sent you a pm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 Originally posted by dandan thanks chris, as always - really appreciate your opinion. i sent you a pm I posted the below a while ago, you / others may find it of interest, so I will append it below: Hmm, this will be controversial, but here goes. Most road cars haven't got good enough camber control to truly make good usage of ultra low profile tyres, so if you go up more than say 1 size in diameter on stock rims, and have to come DOWN on aspect ratio (sidewall height) handling suffers. Supras have already gone from 16 to 17 inch rims, to accommodate bigger UK / US brakes. Why do makers fit big diameter rims? Style. Ask any handling engineer, and if he is truthful he will say the cars are generally better on a higher profile tyre. If camber control is poor (and 90% of road cars roll too much to have good camber control) then they pick up the edges of ultra low profile tyres. However, when fitted from new, factory stock, the suspension engineers have hopefully tuned the whole of the suspensions kinematics and compliance to use said larger rims. It's a VERY different kettle of fish when the end user decides to bolt on some larger diameter rims, and leaves the rest of the suspension alone....The stock suspension bushings hysterisis is also too soft to effectively control the loadings from ultra low profile tyres, this is why a car designed to run on 50 or 55 profiles feels edgy and follows tyre ruts, surface breaks and camber changes so much when fitted with say 35 profile tyres. Until you start to radically modify a cars suspension to utilize ultra low profile tyres it's better, IMO, to stay with near stock wheel and tyre sizes. Reality check :- With respect a lot of drivers neither know nor care whether the handling is the same, better, or worse, so the above doesn't apply, they merely like the looks of certain style and size of wheels and tyres, and that's fine by me, but as you asked.... :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandan Posted June 18, 2003 Author Share Posted June 18, 2003 appreciate that totally chris, i've been working on a fairly rapid road legal race mini for ages...now rose jointed all round and all adjusted (camber, castor toe, height, damping) to what now seems the optimum, it runs on..........wait for it...... 10"x6" wheels with 165 - 70 - R10 Yoko A032-R all round. I haven't really met anything (or anyone) that can out corner this little minature - low weight is a great thing round corners!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminator Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 I remember reading that some time back Chris, just before I was to embark on an expensive purchase of some 18's and ultra wide rubber. Made me think about handling rather than looks. handling won. So I am sticking to 17" rims and a stockish profile. Ifever I get an attack of rice and go for better looking rims they will be 17's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Chris, really appreciate your technical input but I have a question. Originally posted by Chris Wilson so if you go up more than say 1 size in diameter on stock rims, and have to come DOWN on aspect ratio (sidewall height) handling suffers. Supras have already gone from 16 to 17 inch rims, to accommodate bigger UK / US brakes. I don't know the answer hense the question but isn't the basic suspension the same on both UK and J-Spec. I know springs and dampers may be different but the suspension arms and bushes and geometry etc are the same. So moving from 16's to 17's on a j-spec isn't really a change is it? as the UK was standard with 17's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Originally posted by Chris Wilson If it's got Tein shocks on it, it's probably those. They are notorious for knocking, leaking, having too little droop and having bizarre and disparate, side to side, damping ratios. A pair of Armstrong lever arms from the sixties would be preferable, even early 1900's friction dampers All IMHO of course.... Another strong statement I feel there Chris... So thats both HKS AND Tein which are crap now? I think some context needs to be input here.....Tein alone sell 1000 EDFC's (electronic in-car damping control units) per month. The ratio of EDFC's to actual suspension kits is very low so reckon on a good few more thousand suspension kits. Those sort of numbers are not possible if the product is poor. You could of course say that the Japs don't know any better yada yada.... With the sheer number of Teins being sold is it not possible that you are bound to come accross a few that are in need of replacement? Maybe, maybe not, but I tend to look at things fairly objectively. Personally I think Tein know a thing or two about suspension and my experiences with their kits have been all good. Certainly better than the el cheapo Koni garbage I have seen and used from their road application catalogue (and unfortunately had to sell for many years) for sure. For the record, that doesn't include anything that comes out of Konis motorsport dept. which is certainly good stuff. Regards, Nathan TDI PLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 I am sure the OE stuff tein may make is OK, but I can only speak from experience and the Tein aftermarket stuff I see is nearly always leaking, knocking or plain buggered. MR2's, GT4's, Skylines, FTO's, so it's not just one application. They also often seem to have bizarre shock damping rates, possibly for the "drifting" market. Personally I'd rather have the most basic Koni on a car than tein. As you say their motorsport stuff is entirely different, and an entirely different pricing structure too. I have to say yes then, I don't think much of HKS shocks, nor do I think much of Tein aftermarket ones either. Their sales figures don't change this personal perception. If HKS make good products (and they do) I applaud them, but I don't think I can objectively say their shocks are one of their fortes. Tein pillow ball top mounts seem good with a PTFE or Teflon linered ball joint and a nice finish, their springs too seem to fair well, never seen one noticeably sagging or broken, the few i have bothered to measure came close to advertised rate and free and compressed at load lengths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Wilson Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 Originally posted by Simon Chris, really appreciate your technical input but I have a question. I don't know the answer hense the question but isn't the basic suspension the same on both UK and J-Spec. I know springs and dampers may be different but the suspension arms and bushes and geometry etc are the same. So moving from 16's to 17's on a j-spec isn't really a change is it? as the UK was standard with 17's. It is a change as tyre aspect ratio changes, as does rotating inertia. The structural geometry of the arms is the same, but spring and damper rates are revised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith C Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 So the correct way to swap from 16's to 17's on a J-spec would also be to fit the springs/dampers from a car that came with 17's, such as a UK spec? The factory Bilstein kit - is that designed for use with 16's or 17's, as I've got it fitted to my car, and I'm now slightly curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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